Rom

Night, night Erny Its probably not so much that you are tired as it is that I've not been terribly clear. The witness is not willing to name names. Even if they did, the committee would probably just grumble but not really do anything. You're right. There is an issue with the club at committee level....their protocol is unclear and nobody seems to have confidence in applying it. Maybe its something of an Ostrich approach. They have made mention of improving things though. That's what got me thinking about a list...as a guideline. I would have reported it if someone else had seen it and had been willing to go to the show manager with me. The dog in question was a puppy, which was heartbreaking, and I also saw this person repeatedly and angrily slap an adult dog about the head while the dog was in a car crate. While there was an element of shock which slowed me down, ultimately I could see this person was not in full possession of themselves and they definitely fell into the criterion of bringing the sport into disrepute. Unfortunately there was no-one else I could see who witnessed it, and there was no way to prove what I saw. I am not in the business of bringing forward allegations I have no hope of proving. I totally understand where you are coming from there. I like the phrase 'bringing the sport into disrepute' is that in the rule book? Maybe thats the approach thats needed instead of trying to define fair and unfair punishment.

They think they have an idea who it may have been and I think they'd be happy with 'IT' in this instance..... Erny, basically what you have described is the way things are supposed to happen....but they just don't. But that is a really obvious example (flogging behind the shed that is)......I wonder if people have difficulty with the obvious stuff because less obvious stuff isn't dealt with because it is such a judgement call and open to interpretation? I mean, if the person in the example above had been pulled up over other not quite so serious stuff, would IT have escalated to such obvious cruelty?.....well at least at clubs anyway. Or if people were pulled up over the smaller stuff, would it make reporting about the more obvious stuff easier....like Anita's example above? But the resistance at reporting issues goes all the way to the Judges too it seems. Maybe its just too hard to know where to draw the line?

I'd add ego to your list too there I think Dogdude. But I don't think reports would stand on emotive language or descriptions of emotions....so I think it has to be about the correction/punisher

Ok, theres one: When the punisher is not related to the behaviour immediately preceding it. I could probably word that better..... I really think this is a judgment call in a way that is very hard to prove one way or another. My personal test is mostly about whether the person administering the punishment is doing so calmly and professionally, or whether they are angry/frustrated/disappointed and taking it out on the dog. How can you prove that? Thats just it. I wonder if this is the very reason why so many incidents go unreported....it is a judgement call and if it came to the pinch, how do you prove it? Do people hold back on reporting because they worry that the handler in question will get off scot free? Apparently one of the people that I was talking about this to was talking to a committee member from another club about a person that attends both clubs who was seen doing a flogging behind the shed. The committee member from the other club didn't want to give names. Why is it so hard? Is it because there isn't a definitive set of guidelines? Is it because there is something unworkable about the incident reporting process? If somebody else had witnessed the above with you, do you think you would have been more inclined to report it? Maybe its like you say though....there is an element of shock at the time?

Talking to a few of my doggy friends, some who are involved in committees for clubs and the following things were being discussed: Even though harsh handling of a dog is frowned upon, there are times when punishment is called for. Some see things that they feel is unfair punishment, but they hesitate to take action basically because there are no guidelines in place at the club. What one thinks is fair another disagrees with. There are of course the obvious cases like the dog that is taken out behind the club house and flogged because it didn't drop in the ring etc. I think that in an instance like this, apart from the fact that the dog is hardly going to connect the punishment to his crime, if someone felt the need to hide the fact that they were punishing their dog then its highly likely that they knew that if they were seen they would probably get reported anyway. If you were to devise a set of guidelines that would help someone that was wavering on reporting an incident, what would you include on that list?

That would depend on what the owner is looking for and they may not necessarily know about or be looking for the right things. My girl had put her back out during an accident and we had been seeing a chiro and physio for some time when I decided to try a halti on her. I only had to see the effect on her neck once before I figured that I didn't like potential of the halti. Apart from the fact that she hated it, she didn't show any signs that it had physically harmed her to my untrained eye. The thing is, because of her back, I was always watching how she was moving to be sure that everything was going OK. She was moving fluidly and her rear extension was improving. She had already been scheduled for the final follow up for her back and I didn't really expect that anything was wrong. I figured that we would just be getting checked over to be sure everything was right and she was regaining strength in the right areas etc...maybe some adjustments to the exercises we had been given. At the physio appn. the physio showed some attention to the way she was placing her back feet when she was standing still. If he placed her square, she would immediately move one rear foot forward.....her neck was out. It wasn't bad because she wasn't showing any other signs ie restricted movement in her neck etc, but it was out. He explained to me that there are some nerves in the neck that affect the rear legs and that the leg that she puts forward will indicate what side of the neck that the problem is on. If you watch dogs that are worked on haltis, have a look and see how many don't stand square in the rear. But this is such a minor detail that many wouldn't pick up on it and even if they did it would be a long shot for them to think that the halti may have caused it. So its not always a case of choosing to ignore or being intentionally cruel. As with many things, its just a lack of education. The dog was already under treatment for the cruciate problems and it was the trainer that initially pointed out that they thought there was a problem with the dogs back....the owner was none the wiser until the trainer pointed it out.

Thanks for the article Pinnacle, I've copied it to read in a more comfortable environment...hate sitting at the computer. The sad thing is, you could remove the word e-collar from this para and put in the name of any other training tool and the gist of the para would still ring true. I have been talking to a lady who has a 5yo desexed male dally. The first time she asked for help at the club I've been attending (for observation/study purposes) she had him on a halti. He presented with facial abrasions. Even though at one point he was standing by her side doing absolutely nothing wrong this dog was still experiencing an adversive that he couldn't turn off evidenced by the fact that he kept furiously rubbing his face on her leg. In turn to which, she was reprimanding him and putting additional pressure on the halti to get him to stop rubbing. The halti was removed, the dog put on a check chain and the lady was shown some basic check chain work in which the dog was responding well to the sound of the check chain alone. His bottom jaw relaxed and he started wagging his tail and walking with a spring in his step. The lady decided not to persist with the check chain work but to go back to the halti at the urging of RSPCA supporters. On Saturday just gone, she was at a function that I was at. I asked after her dog and she said that after his morning walk that morning his face was bleeding. This dog also has cruciate ligament problems and ordinarily sits very slowly, however now he is collapsing in the back end at the slightest pressure on the lead. His back is apparently out. She went back to the club on Monday and had made the decision that maybe the check chain was going to be better for her dog after all. In your words..."highly irresponsible to give it such a wide acclaim to the average dog owner". Yet haltis are freely available to all comers.

Yup....that is most definitely and ETA: :Tongue in cheek icon:

Yup, I can help with a recommendation....have PM'd

Phew, glad to hear that! It turns out that it was a judge that talked to a friend of mine. Apparently RSPCA has been to some trials....not sure what actually went on there. However, local RSPCA has invited our dog club to go to an event as a demo team and they know we use check chains.

Hey NC, It seems that Steve might be a little busy, so if he doesn't mind I'll jump in and answer this one for you. As the name of the program suggests you form a triangle...you on one point, the dog on another and the food bowl on the third.

I think that sometimes the people who support such stuff or promote it on a broad scale are the types of people who are generally bossy or control freaks anyway...not all the time though because if a dog presents with dominance issues and the handler is basically uneducated, then such leadership training for the handler as opposed to dominating the dog doesn't go astray. I think it makes it easier for said owners because it gives them definitive cues as to when to enforce which behaviours. Next time you're out in the bush or another natural setting, have a look around and see how many doorways or gates that you see. Imagine a pack out there...is the Alpha going to spend all its time reprimanding a dog that gets ahead of him? And if he did, what impact would this have on the ability of the pack to perform an effective and efficient hunting expedition as a cohesive unit? There are times however when I need my dog to wait before going through a door or gate...I train for these times. I step over my dog sometimes too, but if I need her to move she does because I've trained her to. I don't worry if my dog is higher than me because I know that if I ask her to she will get down. I also don't worry if my dog eats before me. If a subordinate pack member found some small tasty morsel to eat do you think that it won't eat it until the Alpha has had first pickings? Or would it just eat it unless the Alpha challenged it over the morsel? My dog will leave a piece of food if I tell her to. I'd make the above non negotiables if the dog was challenging me after I commanded. No. I think that when you know what your dog is willing to work for then you show them how to get it you are more of a guidance counsellor than a Boss. Thats the type of relationship I'd prefer to have with my dog.

That was my initial thought too KitKat. The info I got has filtered through a number of levels so I can't yet state on its truth or factualness (if there is such a word...can't think of the word I'm looking for) but it apparently came down from the Obedience sub committee. Word was that obedience is cruel.

Story filtered through some doggy contacts that the RSPCA is planning on campaigning to ban obedience trials.....anyone else heard this?

I wonder how many people we'd be talking about? If there are no names, would the documents hold as much weight? Could the company or organisation that the person was involved with state that they didn't give anyone authorisation to make a submission? And if so, would that invalidate the submission? I wonder if submissions without personal info would be treated by the law in a similar fashion to hearsay? I guess much of it depends on exactly what is in the submissions...if they are referencing other works or studies, then maybe it wouldn't matter so much. I guess we could go ahead with docs with deleted personal info, then if any questions are raised try persuing the personal info at a later date if need be. The other side of this is that at least you'd get a look at the submissions, and decide which would be worth persuing to get the personal info for. Geez...its a toughie, eh?

Yup, http://www.sprenger.de When the page loads there is a contact link on the left hand side. Don't forget to click on the English flag...unless you can read German of course :cool: ETA: you beat me Jeff.

I've not had much to do with sporn harnesses but they apparently put pressure on the nerves in the front legs when the dog pulls. Since the dog has wobblers which will lead to paralysis in the legs anyways, I think maybe the vet should be consulted....Who knows, perhaps it will just make the sporn more effective for this particular dog? But a little caution won't go astray incase there is the possibility that the sporn could speed up the leg paralysis.

Thanks for your concern, Arya Its almost all ancient history now. The only after effects we have of that incident now are that if I'm standing up, she always ducks her head away from me if I go to pat her. If I'm sitting down its no problem. Even though her heeling position has improved out of sight, if she is sitting at my side and I have my hand by my side, she sometimes leans out away from me a little, but even this has been on the improve. I know how I'm going to work on this now....thanks K9 LOL. I think TOT helped build her confidence because I was releasing her to go away from me to get the reward. Also, K9, now that I think about it, I was doing a diluted form of what you taught me for loose lead walking....just didn't make the connection until now...duh! By diluted, I mean that when she is in drive, she is really trying hard to comply because she really wants the release and I find that I don't have to do much more than jiggle the lead to get her to adjust position.

.....Thinking cap on......-R at low levels until you get the position and any time it strays from position with handler totally emotionless until +R is needed for correct position?

I just want everybody to know that I am taking in everything that is said here and that I'm not ignoring on discounting anything... Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born. .....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more But since you're actually starting with a light weight and moving to a heavier weight, wouldn't you be desensitising instead of sensitising? I'll admit that I don't fully understand sensitisation yet and how you go about achieving it for those applications where you need to sensitise a dog to a stimuli. Its probably something that I've done in training at some point....but I don't know the science behind it. So I could be way off mark here. Arya, I started teaching my girl the heel as a pup in a similar fashion to what you've outlined. But then we had a training accident and unfortunately it was during her critical period. I was luring her into position and rewarding and she got really excited when she finally understood what I was asking her. I leant down to reward, she anticipated the treat and leapt up to get it....in a one in a million shot, she hooked one of her puppy canines into the pad of my finger...I stood up and had 16 kg of pup hanging off my finger by one tooth. In that instant, with the shock I flicked my hand to get her off...I did it without even thinking....I hurt her and scared the hell out of her....it broke my heart. Also made a mess of my finger! We had issues with her heeling wide after that and luring alone wasn't enough to bring her back in. So I went to a lead to help encourage her back in.

Ok Pax, so maybe its a silly line of thought after all

I'm still thinking on this....perhaps I've confused by mentioning a bit. And maybe I've come to the wrong conclusion about what my acquaintance is actually doing with his horses since I'm not that horse savvy. But it was his statement about response to change in the weight that got me thinking along the lines that I am. I've worded the above post a little too broadley too I think. By changes in weight, I wasn't refering to the weight difference between the two different weights of rein if you get what I mean, but more the way the sensation of the weight changes as the rein moves. Sorry if this is getting muddier To try to clarify what I'm thinking about imagine this. I've blindfolded you and you have ear plugs. I tie a piece of heavy rope to your wrist. I'm going to give you $1000 if you can follow me, but I'm not going to put any tension on the rope or use it to guide you in any way. I'll reward you for every step you take in the right direction. Do you think that you would be able to learn judge where I'm going by the changes in sensations of the rope as I move? If so, if I then moved to using a lighter rope but kept up the reward schedule would I be sensitising you to minute changes in the sensation of the rope?

Hi Julie There is a lady in Maryborough, Qld that trials a Shar Pei in AADA Agility. Haven't seen them for quite some time now, so don't know how they're going.

According to his book, The Dog Whisperer, he is an Australian Standards Accredited Instructor, Canine Good Citizens Accredited Instructor and a lecturer of Canine Behaviour at Sydney Technical College (or was at the time of publishing in 2001) and also advises and assists local government and animal welfare shelters in dog behaviour problems. Some John Richardson for dissection...have fun

Yeah - well it would have been good had I been right!!! Been making a few errors of late. And too lazy to go check first. Naughty .... and not like me because I really dislike spelling errors. Philosophy is the correct spelling. Now - thanks for picking me up on it. Ok...but since its about dogs, I've decided to go with Philospuppy ;)