lab and poodle

I have seen it, I can't do it, but I couldn't care less, as unlike a lot of other methods, the dog dosen't get hurt, and has some idea of what is expected of him/her. I am grateful that methods like bridging, marking allow the seperation of the reward from the mark, making it easier to keep our dog's focus. it means that clumsy people like myself have some chance!

I mostly have to agree with you poodlefan, my little poodle learns so fast it feels like cheating. I have also trained a bright lab, and he was a funny one. Just as you thought You had an exercise licked, he would figure out another way of doing it. He wasn't one for a hell of a lot of drilling. What amuses me, is that what every breed standard or publication says about their breed is that they are "intelligent". I mean you get down to "rubbish tin" (you have to bang a pair of rubbish tins together to get their attention) and they still are intelligent. Their are dogs that are too intelligent to retrieve, to intelligent to trial blah blah. I wanted a good all rounder, so I got a poodle. I wanted a nice fast dog, and that's what I have got. I need a dog intelligent to live in our household, and sensitive enough to reasonably comply with what she is told. I don't want to do sophisticated arm wrestles to get reasonable compliance. I do note now a show of stubborness which I fully intend to exploit!

My older dog was trained on a flat collar, uses a flat collar, has trialled (succesfully) in a flat collar, walks loose lead on a flat collar and will never ever see a check chain again. Check chains rely on the use of pain at some stage of their use to be effective. My new poodle will never ever see a check chain. You have to go a distance in Melbourne to go to a positive (only) club, but S herbrooke up in the hills is pretty good to me. I travel from the SE suburbs, and will probably go out of it in a coffin.It must be the prettiest training ground in Australia, with a really relaxed atmosphere.We don't do the old style stuff of making you feel inadequate, stupid or your dog a retard.If you can train there, with the duck pooh, the barbecue, the crowds of people having parties in summer, your dog will think a normal walk or a trial is a piece of proverbial. One of the earlier instructers of the club, who is now deceased managed to title, some with AOC's, a representative of all groups bar one using positives. I heard some good stuff about how she used to approach the choice between chokers etc,and it seemed pretty forthright stuff to me. I cna't print it here becuase it is a tad on the rude side.While the club is pet orientated, I can tell you that at least two of the instructors (one of them is me) look out for the next dog going through to trial. I had fantastic one on one support with my dog when I was trialling. Now he just gets to prove me wrong all the time by never misbehaving when I want him too. He is such a good dog, and is a credit to his breeder, and this training method. He got kicked out of J+P school in NZ!!

K9: well as we are all english speaking here I thought I would quote from the Dictionary of the Englishg language, not the Bio medical quote book... :rolleyes: Im not sure I like rough biomedical anything btw LP: K9: No it was serious question, but I will rephrase it... Q: Are you aware that there are other methods of training with the e collar than avoidance training? K9: thanks for that, but I wont really accept a dog training reference from a Tabloid newspaper.. K9: Ah now I see, you would really benefit from a demonstration of my e collar training, most people cant tell when the dog is being stimulated, the levels I use are so low, the dog can just percieve it... K9: well thats not going to happen... I can back up anything I say I can, if I say I can train your dog to do something or I can train without pain, I will be happy to demo it rather than say you will have to trust me... K9: certainly, stress is the aversion in this case... K9: thats what I just said? K9: Talking is a very limited means of communication. Hence my reluctance to accept "you will just have to believe me". Reading body language, even in humans as you seem to like the comparison, has been deemed a far higher level of communication than speaking... K9: This is why having only half the knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading a dog body language is quite easy & accurate when one knows how. Using an e collar is very simple to do with great success... Comments like these K9: Each time the collar is fitted to a dog, the working level, ie the level the dog can just percieve the stim, is determined by the dogs first feeling of the lowest level. That level is not assigned to the dog for ever, in fact it may be adjusted up or down many times during a training session, good collars have many levels starting very low, meaning that going up a level is as little as a 7% increase over the previosu level... So whether or not frome season to season or not the fat content of a dog changes is irrelavant... LP: The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: you dont strike me as someone who has difficulty being technical.. but I agree with you there. Thats why strapping a collar on a dog & seeing what I do would be of huge benefit to you.. Many things look a lot different on paper than in practice... K9: I actually have the graph, I believe from memory the test was conducted in NZ... It isnt relevant to dog training at all, Im sure its meant as a graphical display for those that need something like that to feel better about collars... Its like how clean diesel smoke is compared to car exhaust, really irrelavant when you consider the soot... K9: can you prove it isnt? K9: Im not sure how minor it is when it is your central nervous system thats carrying the current. Its not a terminal, its a dog... You need to get out of the lab I actually work in one, because I earnt the right to be there. I have two TAFE level diplomas, (how practical is that), and two funny things with (hons) after them. And now I am going for the one that will make me the laughing stock of pollies and the community. Never mind, without us lot, there would be no technology and we wouldn't have a computer to type on. K9: we know, electricity takes the easiest path... They know that the earth probe completes the circuit, not the dog. (thats in conventional theory) Thats the problem. The current takes the path proportional to the resistance of the path. There are many paths that all carry a little bit of current. A very good friend of mine runs a business in New Zealand predicting the current paths around power stations. It is very complex and very challenging. The general field is called finite elemnet analysis. K9: the best test is a FIELD test, you need to test one on a dog then talk to me... Thats the point. I will not not use something that is so unpredictable even though it produces good results unless it becomes neccessary. Believe you me I believe full stop that it is a dam sight more humane and accurate than a choker collar which is horrificably variable and stupid and old fashioned. I would happily issue every person with a choker if I had the funds, an electric collar if they would throw the choker away, and agree to take some lessons. A more extreme analogy is ECT. Quite a few people with severe depression finally use ECT because the risks outweigh the benefits, and nothing else works. Believe you me even less is really known what happens with ECT than with the E collar scenario. I think in younger days before I got my lovely lab going, I would have thought about it. He is on old boys rules now (at 12.5) and still in flair and speed of response would give a lot of younger dogs a go. Just the thought of a bit of "work" gets him going. Unlike 95% of labs, his weight is kept at the 30Kg mark. My new dog is a 13 week old minature poodle. I think I am cheating, she is so responsive. I took her to dog school last week, she introduced herself to a few selected dogs,(by me) and then she was keen to get on with it. I had to shake my head with disbelief she was so focuced for a little one. Of course I didn't train her that way! and I didn't spend 6 years tracking down the sort of poodle I wanted K9: bring your dog along, thats when the magic happens... I see your new here, if you get the chance to attend a workshop, I will demo all I have said & more with pleasure.. I will one day.. but I can be a pedantic pain in the **** Take Care.. You too!!

K9: not sure where you got that from, but stimulation commonly means : [*]Arousal of the body or of individual organs or other parts to increased functional activity. [*]The condition of being stimulated. [*]The application of a stimulus to a responsive structure, such as a nerve or muscle, regardless of whether the strength of the stimulus is sufficient to produce excitation. L&P: You have used the dictionairy definition, fair enough. I was using a rough biomedical definition K9: This is why they are not called shock collars. The term unpleasant doesnt have to associated with pain either... That is true. There are many examples of human behaviour where pain and pleasure go hand in hand. It is away away from my experience though. L&P: K9: again, unpleasant doesnt mean painful. Also who said anything about avoiding anything? Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training... I take it that you ask in jest. I will leave it in jest. L&P: This was in the weekend age (a Melbourne paper). I have got in on my desk to follow up. K9: in the last post you seemed to be saying that what a human feels from an e collar is somewhat different to a dog & now they are similar? No The answer is that we have very little idea. Or we can do is observe the behaviour of a dog during shock, as it is very hard to measure their responses during shock as the shock generally overloads the sensors that would normally measure their responses. I would like to see the study, can you referemnce it please. Im sure though that the study was completed using an electric shock that would be deemed as painful? Again, the perception of pain and the response to pain is extremely variable. MAy be it will be the field of these new hapiness studies that are starting to happen. I can ferret out papers that I have read in the past, but this is my holiday and you will just have to believe me. L&P: K9: stress is a part of all dogs training, good trainers know how to avoid creating stress & reduce it if it is present. I have no disagreement with this at all, except sometimes feel that a little bit of stress correctly applied can help make a dog make the correct decision. Moisture only provides a different resistance value, the collars are designed not to deliver more or less current regardless of resistance. Moisture does change the resistance and so does hydration. You are seeing a 2D situation when in fact a 3D situation exists. If the device is approximately current regulated, then an upper value of voltage is used when very little current flows as the limit. Nerve wiring is constant in the animals neck, once the collar is fitted the level at which the dog is trained can be determined & rarely, even given all of the examples, does it change... We don't know, because the dog can't talk to us. We also tend to interpret dog language to suit us, i.e some people would call some appeasement stratergies a "desire to please", where I would call them a grovel,so we might not notice changes. Also fat levels change quite a bit, particually with the seasons and some gun dog diets. On this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? Absolutely not. I haven't had to use one, and I really don't have to use one. If I needed to, I would be pointing the handler and dog to a professional. I doubt wheter the situation would arise with my own dogs L&P: K9: prepardness of the shock would be the dog anticipating the handlers actions, same with any training tool. This is a major problem, see what most tracking failures are. Voltage is simply the pressure applied to the current, fixed & contrlled by the collar manufacturer & the level chosen. I don't mean to be unkind, but you can't have voltage regulation and current regulation happening all at once. I wish it was quite that simple,and quite that easy to do, becuase I would be going to the Rugby World cup, not staying here in Melbourne. L&P: The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: whilst I am not calling you on your electrical experience, some of the things you have mentioned fall outside th realms of e collar training, & I do wonder how experienced you are with electricity in terms of dogs training. Maybe if you answer the above questions that will help me... L&P: K9: Congratulations on the design, but elevtric fences have a completly different design & operation to e collars. I also never said that e fences werent being made? L&P: K9: Ok great, but what you said previously was: Yep. The test is usually by the CSIRO, and compares a bar graph showing the energy output of an E collar and an electric fence. I noticed it during the xmas holidays and had a bit of a giggle. K9: you indicate that there are charts that pretend that a dog feels the output as a human would, but now your talking in elecal output... No. Bad grammar or english on my part. What I was referring to was the process where e collar merchants suggest that the tingle in a human fore arm is the same as what the dog feels. L&P : K9: you are aware that e collars & electric fences operate on 2 different principles Im sure so why would they be governed by the same standards? L&P: K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth. All this is electrically, is a minor terminal relocation. Ok, but humans have access to them,E collars and E fences and do stupid things. We are supposed to design to this. Don't ever get the idea that E fence standards are too much about animals. I am applying the same standards here. E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm... We hope. As I explained above, it is much more complex than that. A better picture is to imagine the two probes as having circles around them going further and further into the animal. These circles represent conduction pathways. One must also be aware that the layer under the skin is much more conductive than the skin too... L&P: K9: perhaps it would be wise yto make those type of comments after yo know how much electrical education I do or dont have... Or perhaps after you read the section I wrote above on how each of the two devices work... I didn't have an earth shattering change of mind. L&P: K9: well perhaps you could supply some of the information I asked you for in terms of graphs etc first, the information doorway works both ways... I have done the best I can, and we have lost the point I was making. I will restate it in different words, I don't like what choker collars do to handlers or dogs. I prefer not to use E collars or pinch collars, but if you do, I think you have to call a spade a spade.

K9: this would depend on your own understanding of the word "shock" & the word "stimulation". "Stimulation" is usually meant to imply that a nerve or such is caused to react. iT would usually be limited to situations such as probes planted in the human brain to stimulate and prevent epilipsy. A shock can have many meanings as to level. If one searches or is familiar with safety standards, it would generally mean a level of electric current such that an unpleasant sensation is observed which could cause an unsafe situation such as an object to be dropped at one end of the spectrum, to there being a probability fo death at the other . L&P: K9: this is always dependant on the level used, pain does not have to be part of e collar training. Pain is very subjective. Why avoid something that is not at least unpleasant or painful? Modern research shows humans are divided into those that like to get it over and done with, and those that will avoid it. (an electric shock was used for this experiment). Very different pictures of brain activity were produced. I would suggest that dogs are similar. L&P: K9: might you explain what you think these variables are? Well here are the ones off the top of my head. Stress, moisture, nerve wiring, location on the body, physical and mental condition of the subject. Prepardness for the shock, Voltage and duration of the shock. Current time and voltage time profiles. I am only starting. I don't mean to get narky, but professionally, I know a hell of a lot about shock and it's perception and how not to let it happen. I have also designed electric fence units too. last time i looked, they were still being made. L&P: K9: I ahve never seen any such graph that compares pain levels percieved by dogs based on what an e collar feels like on your arm. Can you show me one? If you look up several e collar sellers in this country, they are (were fond) of showing that the standard for an electric fence allows 20 joules.(which it does). They then compared it to the energy output of an E collar which is relatively small.This 20 joules though is not a measure of percieved shock, but a measure of how much energy the grass as well as the "shocked" animal gets. The "shocked" animal gets very little of this energy. It is very different. L&P: They are very bewildered becuase things that are regarded as ok for E collars aren't allowed for fences. There are 2 standards here. K9: As am I, but my reasons are:- 1. This thread isnt about e collars. 2. Electric fences do not operate any thing like an e collar. Sorry, they do. They put out a voltage . It causes a shock. On a fence the animal has let go time which they generally use to get away. On a collar, they rely on you to do that. Worse, on some collars they have continuous settings, and have no way other than you to get away from it. The method is the same, the technology is the same. The difference is that an E collar is smaller,and remote controlled. 3. I have never seen any of the graphs you speak of. 4. You seem to be jumping to conclusions on how the e collar works.. L&P: K9: well thats nice to know but you might seek some professional instruction on its use first.. Off course I would, just as I would expect someone with very little electrical experience to check out the facts of shock with someone who knows one end of an electron from the other. Modern e collar methods dont include pain & dont mess with the dogs mind at all... Where is this research outside of some manufacturers pleading? I will read it, and see if I can find it. I just seemed to have a bit of bother when I fired up my search engine

I use a flat collar, or when tracking a harness. I select dogs too suit my needs, strong confident sometimes wilfull dogs, and I train them form the time I get home. I mostly use positive training techniques, and find little reason now to use otherwise. I despise choker collars, becuase it is not visible to most users exactly what is going on. Hence they become painful for most dogs. I despise even more the view often touted that it is the noise that causes the choker to work. What happens for them to work in the majority of cases is that the dog "remembers" the pain of a previous correction. I remember getting a lecture when I was learning to be an instructor because I put in a correction into my Lab becuase he decided to have a lie down rather than sit. Somehow he was supposed to respond to a slight jingle of the collar. If a slight jingle worked, I sure wouldn't have put the correction in. This is the trouble for this type of belief. It condemms a significant quantity of dogs and handlers to a half life, with no sight of an effective working relationship. A pinch collar is more effective, and requires much less force. While I believe that chokers should be flatly banned, or subject to consumer laws on the grounds that they don't work too hot, I believe that pinch collar use needs to be overseed by trainers for the sake of the dog and the handler. Honesty is neded in this discussion. Pain is used as a training method, no matter what your persuasion is.Say it, don't pretty it up. I use isolation, or the threat of a relationship meltdown with some strong words.It is not my main training method. I think if we want to hang on to our dogs, we need to communicate honestly and clearly to Joe Public with well researched material. There is so much half baked extremist stuff on both sides,it does everyone a disservice. One prime example of this is with the use of "E" collars. "E" collars work becuase they give the dog a shock. it is not a stimulation. The output of the collar hurts the dog, and probably plays with it's mind a bit because it dosen't understand electricity. The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables, but output "power" or energy is not a good guide to how the dog will feel.Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. I am not entirely sure, but most appliance manufacturers would "kill" to be allowed to use such paltry safety standards, and I believe that my Colleagues making electric fences are entirely bewildered. Despite all this, I would use an E collar if it meant that a dog got to avoid a green needle.

I just love this situation because it provides a very powerful reward. There are leadership issues involved, and you can get all pysched out about this, or you can get on with the behaviour. As you approach the dogs from about 10 meters away, insist on high attention heeling. Dosen't happen =U turn away from the dog(s). This is stressful for your dog, because up to now, what doggie wants in this situation is what doggie gets. Then try it again, and again and again. Your dog will give in. Try and set it up so that when doggie gives in, he/she gets to have access to the dog(s). You are now a super dog hero, controller form outer space, and if you were having hints of leadership debates (slow response to commands , the odd growl etc, deafness) , these can often disappear after a session of this. You should really do this with a very savvy trainer, with really savvy dogs, because you can get a sort fo extinction burst out of your own dog. If you aren't a physically strong person, use a halti like collar. One source is www.blackdog.net. Their one seems nice. I personally don't use them, becasue I have a min poodle, and a Labrador who is very well behaved.(I sometimes feel like shouting no he wasn't born like this, he was a stubborn ratbag as a puppy/younger dog)!)

I use clicker training and straight positive training, whatever suits. The main thing is to get the timing right and have a ball, both yourself and the dog. I am not much into writing things down or working out micro steps, but I sure do read a hell of a lot, watch heaps, and like to train on the fly.I always remember that dogs are specialists, and need to be introduced into doing behaviours in different enviroments. I am right into being unpredictable, and using the enviroment as a reward. I don't take crap though, and will happily narrow down a dogs options very quickly by using negative punishment. (End of game, isolation etc). I will use relatively mild positive punishment once in a while (say every 6 months) on real hard heads like my old lab.(He is a real softie now.) I can see places where training implements I don't use could be of service. One of them is not a choker collar. If I won lotto, I would go door to door to collect evry last one and throw them in the rubbish. They are bad news for handlers and dogs. I would use an electric collar as a last resort on working gun dogs and sheep dogs. I would qualify as an expert (on the electricity side) on the perception of electric shock , and by gees they are way too unpredictable for my liking for ordinairy day to day use by amateurs. I can see that with large high drive dogs in the hands of less well endowed handlers, a prong collar could be useful. But again, I worry about the training of the handler. I also wonder wheter they get used a bit quickly.

I did Clicker train Bob when he was a pup, but I found it, well akward for me, click and give food and try to retrieve a ball or whatever all at once just was way above me. And I seemed to be constantly giving treats. I should probably give it another go. I decided for all the reasons that you have stated, to use the conventional system at the beginning . I didn't get the results that I liked. I changed to clicker training, but instead of using a clicker I used a verbal marker, yip. This has worked brillantly. Don't be dogmatic about it though. Sometimes you just don't need to bridge or mark. The other great mistake that I see people do, is to not escalate the level of performance required for a treat. The next one is to reward for bad or poor behaviour. I reckon most beginning trainers could replace themselves with an interval timer , so dog heels for a couple of paces, sniffs on the ground then just on time, whips head up for a treat. Reward for the behaviour not the treat. Behaviour is good attentive heeling for progressively longer and longer but UNPREDICTABLE intervals. Use jackpots. (as others have suggested). I also found that breakfast where we trained was a pretty good motivator for getting a long sequence of excellent behaviour. Don't be afraid to cut the session short and jackpot if you get something really excellent. When all else fails, look up the premack principle. You can't compete with enviromental treats so you need to know how to use them. There is so much literature on positive training out there. Just like anything, you need to read it, critically analyse it, and use what works.

He is 100% distracted, I cant get him to do anything he is just eyeing of and trying to get to all the other dogs. He pulled me on my ass (grass was slippery as it was raining) so I took him about 6 metres away from the class. Did a few routines to try and get him to focus but it doesnt matter he just wanted to be a monster. I feel sorry for you, and my wonderful 12.5 year old Lab (CDX TDX) was a dog dominant full on clown. Given a class full of dogs, and a bit of food around he was impossible.I heard all the guilt trip stuff, about alpha etc. He was a BOC (Back yard obedience champion) but hopeless out there. I made two shows for him. Number one show was me, the food, the TOYS. Be ultra rewarding. Forget whatever the instructor is saying, be really unpredictable, i.e one step right about turn halt drop. The other show after one only "bad boy" in really loud language (if the class looks around at you, you have got it about right) is a quick brisk heel straight into the back of the car. Important that you go away. Come back in 10 minutes.Same routine. If you get to more than seven of these, please email me, you have broken a record. Also, as others have said, get him settled with older calm dogs who will ignore him mostly. Now that I am an instructor, I never pull the guilt stuff. Name any situation , there are at lest 10 different ways of solving it. It is an instructors job to do that in a calm constrctive manner. I can teach leadership in 5-10 minutes with a couple of exercises if needed that leave the handler's ego intact. If you want to get the brain going and the critical faculties moving, have a shot at "Dogs" by the Coppingers. Might make you think about some aspects of our dog training. Distract you from some very inferior dog people that you should never have to put up with.

"Schutzhund is a reconised sport " In AUstralia, what recognised legal body recognises Schutzhund as a sport? "and the Victorian Supreme Court has already made a ruling on such. The judge said that a Schutzhund training dog is less likely to bite than and untrained dog." What was this case? Was it before or after the 2005 admendments? What were the legal consequences of the case? Was the dog still required or not required to be treated legally as a dangerous dog? I don't particually respect taking the law into your own hands, by subverting it or being less than candid. It is fraught with difficulty. I sure would have liked to beat the living daylights out of the so and so's who threw egg (again) at my house this morning, or opened the gate and let my dog have a go. The law says different so I don't. If I want the law changed, I need to go throught the process of getting the law changed, and give my fellow citizens a go at having their say.

i didnt say the check chain was like a clicker but some dogs respond to the links in the chain moving before they are corrected neither of my two dogs have EVER had a check chain around their necks i use only positive training methods ie dog does well dog receives verbal praise the dog only receives food treats after leaving training arena it is not fair to have dogs scrounging around for food when there are other people around who do not wish to train their dogs in this manner. it can be chaotic during off lead training excercises not to mention dangerous having big boofy labs bounding up on you whilst training your dog cos you have food in your pocket this happened to an older gentleman in my next door neighbours dog class he had to have surgery when pushed he fell over his own dog and broke his hip. And no i have nothing against labs my family breed pure bred gundog labs they are however renowned as food lovers I gues I would like to politely comment on what you have said. Food is a great motivator, lots of experiments and trials have shown this. To not use food as an education tool is to lose a very valuble aid. Praise only is a very weak motivator, and is only effective for some dogs.I also use toys, access to other people, dogs, runs, tone of voice more trainingand so on and on. I think the time has come for those who don't use food to learn to train their dogs to not get distracted by it. We go for walks and kids throw food everywhere.. can't not take the dog for a walk just because there is food around. As far as off lead exercises go, if I as an instructor think that a dog is going to only respond to having a lead on, then the lead will not come off. It is a waste of time for the dog and the handler. The club has a duty of care to not allow big boffy labs or other breeds to go running up to other people willy nilly food or not.It is dangerous full stop. Where is the control and consideration ? This is a perenial issue, and is best dealt with at the class level. My opinion which is a bit on the harsh side, is no CD or similar no run around the club grounds. Lab and Poodle

[THE SAME RESPONSE CAN BE ACHEIVED USING A CLICKER AS EVENTUALLY THE DOG RESPONDS TO THE CLICKING NOISE PRE CORRECTION , You have missed the point . Clicks mark the required behaviour and precede a treat not a correction. IT IS VERY HARD IF PEOPLE IN THE CLASS ARE GIVING THEIR DOG FOOD EVERY FIVE SECONDS IN THAT TYPE OF CLASS,YOU HAVE THE LABRADORS ENTERING THE TRAINING AREA SCROUNGING FOR FOOD INSTEAD OF DOING AS EXPECTED OF THEM AND THEN YOU HAVE THE ISSUE OF DOGS WHO ARE LEARNING ABOUT FOOD REFUSAL ECT. I found it a fantastic oppurtunity to show my lab that I control the food. Scavenge for the food on the ground, then in the car for ten minutes. (He got to enjoy training) A by product of this training is that he never touches food such as groceries or even his treat pouch unless he is told to do so. I also have seen a lot of dogs trained by the idea that it is the noise of the choker collar that does the work, and I am not impressed. The dogs generally respond best to a correction that causes them some pain. In my dog's case, you would have been welcome to get my dog to sit with a gentle mostly sonic correction around the neck. Having tried, I find running head first into a wall more interesting. Hence I crossed over as they say. It can't be too bad, my walls do have the odd title on them or so. I think time has moved on. if we don't change over to more humane modern methods otherwise it will be done for us by way of legislation.