lab and poodle

Denis I am not disputing what you are saying, I am very well aware of what the theory says and means. I was putting it into personal context. I should have said "I won't have a breakdown if my dog drops a dumbell. It just isn't that important to me" . It was a semi snide go at trainers who seem to loose the plot at what they are doing and for what. It is an area where operant theory has some difficulty, namely addictive or reflex behaviours.(I must get my dog to do the retrieve at any cost, I must , i must ,I must) It describes them very well, but hasn't really come up with a solution.

"I detest dogs who pull on the leash" I do too!! My lab learned not too (he was a sod) and I lost my cool too., and my poodle is going too to. I am a bit loathe to give advice over the net on this subject because there can some behaviours behind the pulling, and it is very hard to judge the ability of the handler as far as timing and physical strength goes. In broad terms I am aware of the following positive methods 1) The bone or dogs or people method similar principal to TOT but different execution 2) Stop and reverse method 3) Gentle leader managment method. Low probability of success possibly for a weim 4) Mark and go home method. I have several other methods, but I wouldn't think about them for a strong weim.

e.g. it excludes the psychology for one thing, food rewards are predominantly prey drive stimuli, pack drive stimuli are the mainstay of the relationship & obedience, you cannot take a dog to mating and expect him to tie because you offer him a treat to do so. I use both "MODELS" to Drive and operant, in understanding my dogs behaviour when I am training. They aren't neccesarily disjoint. The point of most experiments in operant behaviours is to exclude outside stimuli other than those in the experiment . This is done by using asethetically uniform and bland enviroments. Some clicker trainers (I soemtimes use a clicker too) try and duplicate this by using no emotion during training, and some even use well designed training rooms. As I have progressed in my training, I have been more reliant on observing what my dog is doing, and adjusting my actions to maximise my training efficency. Well to be real I am doing the whole dam thing to enjoy myself! If i don't get it right, my dog might drop a dumbell or similar, and for that I can't see a breakdown happening. I also use the drive model because it explains a dog's behaviour relative to it's enviroment, which was what was missing in operant modelling. I think it is important to use this huge body of work involved in operant behaviour. Look it up, read the base texts (I did before I changed methods) . Then you don't have to work out again (it's called re-inventing wheels, a waste of time) what various different actions might or might not do.Be aware though that not everything in a scientific text is right. I am in a much more black and white field and in an 8 page paper, I could find up to 8 "errors". It is interesting to note that the "drive" model relies on observations of animal behaviour and Human interpratations of them, (similar to social science type methods), and operant behavior studies on a very clinical scientific approach. This drive model with today's pollies would have had it's funds cut off for being too "trendy" and wooly.

Lab & Poodle, by chain collars, do you mean a check chain? Yes, any training type collar.

"Mooper, I think this comment is the exact answer to someone's question above as to why you cant use food in the ring." I totally agree that food shouldn't be used in the trial ring, but I really dole it out for correct good behaviour while I am training them. I wish I could attach a video or something and you might get some idea of what you can get. I reckon I would cop a bit of flak from all sides, (Being too soft blah blah on one side, too vocal using change of pitch for the purist clicker trainers, occasionally using vocal corrections, "making" a 12 1/2 dog do obedience (he should be by the fire getting fat), training a puppy under 6 months, it never stops) I think to be fair though, all training aids should get the biff in the trial ring and that would include chain collars. I can hear the justifications and bleats now, so I will reply in 20 postings..

What rewards For my Lab I have used Normal dog biscuits, sardines, luncheon, liver, breakfast, roast beef, chicken,apple, Dogs to play with, New people to greet, a game, some more attention, a few throws of a tennis ball , unbelivable repititons of retrieving in a pond.blah blah. For my Poodle, Liver, stras, frankfurters,chichen(no go), silly bloody grocery treats (spat out),cuddles,TOYS, people,dogs, always looking. Look out for fast treats (dog eats quickly) like stras. Avoid slow treats (like most grocery types), dried liver etc. It sort of ruins the flow. I am always concerned that people base their training philosophies on watching hardened sheep dogs work, or maniac retrievers go for it. They are a very small percentage of dogs doing precisely what they are bred for. A fair amount of "shot gun" selection has gone into sheep dogs too! Unsuitable dogs get shot. Our mostly pet dogs are been asked to do tasks that they were not specifically bred for, in a pretty demanding enviroment. A few treats to help them learn artifical tasks is no big deal to me.

"Which makes me wonder what other rewards (flyball? agility? tracking?) are so powerful that food is no longer required as a motivation" I have to admit that my old dog would track for the sake of tracking(he go through to TQT on picking up an old teddy bear) , but his motivation and ability to keep to the track were sure as hell extended by the application of tins of sardines at the end of the track. I believe that thius made it fully operant, do track (in prey drive) get reward. Don't do track or get diverted, then no reward. Up to him.

"If a dog breaks a command when offered a treat it means the dog percieves the treat is a 'punishment' compared to the 'reward' of freedom maintained by breaking a command. Once that happens it has 'positivly reinforced' ignoring behaviour." I guess this is why we have a forum. I would suggest that the open spaces is offering a much greater "reward" than the hunk of crap (not meant rudely) in your hand from the dog's point of view. If it is so tempting ot the dog why not use it as a reward? I gree with your conclusion though, you have just rewarded ignoring behaviour. I set it up so there is no chance that this reward may happen without the stay being concluded. In my case, with my little poodle, you wont catch me doing a stay (even novice practice) for quite some time without a length of venitian blind cord attached to her collar. Hence if she breaks, there is a period of isolation in the car. Otherwise, lots of good things happen including access to the wide open spaces.

"And when properly done, the heeling itself becomes a motivator, as I so well demonstrated with my last dog and is becoming the case with my current one. " I have observed this with my older dog. He is a lab, but the idea of a bit of heeling (is it the attention, the chance to be in the thick of it, a bit of pack drive, some remembered pack drive? Heaven knows. One of my favourite obedience books is Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive by Dildei and Booth. I also liked Purely positive training by Booth as well. I know a mini will never cut it in Schutzhund, but many of the principles are the same.

"Ya mean like this? " It looks like mine a few weeks ago. She is cuter of course.

"You're right, there are lots of people who really struggled with Open & didn't go any further. You can teach a dog to retrieve without it having much prey drive - but it's much harder & most people can't do it." That is true. I hear horror stories and very long time intervals of training. Hence my puppies get tested for retrieve drive. I have to tell you that there are Goldies and Labs out there who can't retrieve. I once asked my Class 4 and 5 whose dogs could retrieve, and got one yes reply. There were GSD's, a Lab, a Goldie a few Mutts, and an only Beagle who could. I had to totally re-design my lesson on the spot. (I was going to talk about hooking retrieve/prey drive into rewards) Encouragement was a Victoria only thing I think. You would need to check. Coming for the Mainland to the West Island in 95, I am not too sure.

If you can, do Tracking. Helps wear him out, gives you some time out in teh fresh air, and being a GSD , it is highly probable that he will be good at it. Isn't he just a fraaction young for agility?

"Rather than the treats being a motivation they became an obsession for Bob." They sure can. There are two things that have to happen to make this work for you . One keep on raising the bar as far as performance goes. I want to see the ground shake when my dog drops. Anything much less is just not rewardable. They learn quick Two Be unpredictable. Most inexperienced trainers are 4 step interval timers. Three Have a look at bridging, and keep them guessing where the treats are coming. Keep them a little hungry also. four use all the other rewards around you. Other dogs, other people, etc. five. Never take such big steps time or distance wise that it seems ok for your dog to break a stay. Six: Have you checked who is leader lately? really and truely? Seven: Don't be in such a mad rush to biff the food. A lot of top trainers are still using the food at very high levels. Why do you think you need to thin it down now? Just remember, if we are at work and our boss writes us a note saying how wonderful we are, we still expect to get a paycheck . Same for dogs. Praise generally dosen't cut it. Any case, I am still a sucker, and had to teach my 14 week old poodle that treats don't come out of a red bag always yesterday. I think my older dog told her that I was about to pull the dog bone and loose lead stunt!!

"Thanx for that Poodlefan, so if you want to go straight into novice you can, that's interesting! " In Victoria, it has always been so. I did encouragement with my Lab but it wasn't compulsory, and then did CD etc. I won't be doing CCD with my poodle. The idea of UDX is that it will line us up with UK and NZ sort of. It looks quite challenging and a lot of fun. There are a lot of scenting and retrieving tasks in it. Moral of the story NOW is the time to get that prey drive and retrieving happening with your puppy. I think there are a few sad stories of people giving up at open with retrieves.

I haven't used the dreaded no word yet on my poodle, but I wouldn't get too upset if I did. I think that what happens is that trainers can get very much into the grove of telling their dogs what not to do, rather than what to do,Which is a form of nagging and frankly dosen't work after a while. (The dog gets habituated and dosen't listen) Looking on my bookshelf, I notice that Roger Mugford might have been the first one??? to ride the idea in one of his books. BTW my 14 week mini is a BOC (Backyard obedience champ) She can sit, drop, retrives ok,come, touch and is learning to heel. I do this all with positives, and she goes crazy when she sees me get the treats and her toy. She does all of these behaviours at the dog club,(You'll discover what this means) . The word is focus, and will also do them when my older dog starts to interfere. I am a very proud poodle owner.They are awesome dogs. Have fun

The lab Floppy disk which cost $700 to replace Furniture Every book in the house had his teeth marks I swear he used to pooh up the walls. The carpets The garden We had to get the fire brigade in when he managed to get his head stuck between the gate post and the house wall.( I was about to give him a wallop for barking .This was before I changed sides so to speak) My dislocated thumb. I fell out of bed when the B** was peeing and poohing inside our flat when he was 18 months old in my rush to have a discourse with him. I broke two leads on him, until I got smart and got some strong ones. He used to hassle the cats when they poohed so he could eat it. He is now a lovely dog, and I wouldn't trade him for anything Our Poodle So far she ate the DC cord on my phone's charger. It was dangling in her crate. Lab 11 on the Richter scale Poodle , maybe 2.

" train with a clicker and food rewards which my Instructors have always encouraged but my new Instructor doesn't use food, his reasons being it takes away your other skills such as voice and touch, which I kind of agree with. Does anyone train without food? I just don't think you could get the same focus without food but I could be wrong I'm a newbie. " I train with food, toys, any reward I can grab a hold of. You can find all the info you wnat about what might work and what dosen't in extensive trials that were done in the 60's 70's 80's. A fair no were on dogs. This is what I do. I lure to get the behaviour then change straight away to a click. I then generalise the behaviour (put it in different places and times). I then extend the behaviour, and then proof it. All along I treat,treat,treat treat,For the standard of behaviour I am working with. I very early on teach my dogs that it is a complete waste of time to expect a reward to come from a particular place. I get fantastic focus from my dogs with or without food as they know I am a high probability reward machine. If I thinned down the treats too much or too soon this would not happen. I also use my voice, touch, toys whatever gets the point across at the time.It is not either or. I think early "thinning out" is probably the second most common mistake behind really bad timing that inexperienced dog trainers make. Monkeys are probably more intelligent than dogs, and when they used they in unmanned spacecraft, they rewarded them in the thousands of times before sending them into space. I also must add that some dogs with some personailities can handle this early thinning out, but they wouldn't be my first choice of a trialling dog IMHO.

"Interesting fact. If a person with a disability spits, throws or holds food in their mouth, this is classified as inappropriate behaviour or challenging behaviour. yet non disabled people can do it all in the name of possitive food training " Oh dear. What happens to a partially diasbled positive trainer like myself? I was just going to push your line of thinking a bit and figure out what I could get away with in the ring. May be I could drool food. I could get that one going naturally on a bad day, and imagine how much I could sue for if I got NQ'd for that. Never thought of that before. I have always had real questions on "inappropriate behaviour or challenging behaviour". I think it means that it makes other people uncomfortable. Have a thought for how uncomfortable it makes the disabled person. Personally, I just get on with it and have a life. If others stare or reject or patronise me, or think I am IH becuase I have a slight physical disability, I just move on to people who are worth knowing. My dogs have more sense and couldn't care less. In future, please think before you offend. I am in a good mood today so I am not offending back.

"Oh - and I've had dogs take food from my mouth. I do this in cases of extreme submission and where the dog needs to build up confidence in me BUT only if I'm certain the dog's not likely to take my lips with it. " Yip, if you did that with my Lab, you would have no lips, and you would have to find some new ones as he would eat them!!

Don't think you have to buy a huge crate. Look at what dogs are reccommended for your dog and keep to it. It is a bit like "My dog is running all over our block acres what ever, free as a bird". Probably best to check with the dog as he/she would say "I feel really stressed. I have all this land to guard and nobody to help me"

Dog s can cope with two sets of rules, but it takes them a while to do it. I know it. I am the task master and treat dispenser and stopper of naughty behaviours, and my Wife is the soft never gets angry one. They do take advantage of her.. We accept it and have a laugh about it! I never got the image of Mum, Dad, two kids and a dog, becuase most often Mum gets to do all the work with the dog. Mum suffers becuase how the kids and dogs behave is a reflection on her, and she wants what seems like short cuts for all the dogs behaviours.Bad for Mum, bad for the Dog. I train stays like this. Plase dog in down position, walk away 1/2 pace back and reward. Keep going up and up pace wise, and backwards pace wise , and sometimes big rewards and sometimes small rewards, and then have the kids run around,and other dogs and people etc. Do it outside McDonalds etc etc.Then you will get to UD, and it is all so easy, and you can leave your dog outside a shop and that is easy too, but there are no shortcuts. The dog understands what you want, and you haven't had to have an arm wrestle or a growling match. I reckon that that's the way I would like to be treated,and to paraphrase B.F.Skinner, we are all learning organisms. It is important for your enjoyment, to not spend all the time that you think about your dog through the glasses of a dominance/submission model.

"Can you tell me why so many labs are over weight" I am in the same space,(over weight) being "just" a few pounds over, but 1) The pictures in ther breed standards and books show labs that are well over weight. I don't reckon that you would go too far in showing with a dog in working condition. 2) Every lab you see is over weight so you reckon that is normal. 3) Vets are a bit too kind. We got our lab down when a Vet told us we were killing him. When we got his weight down we had so many benefits we were dam careful ever since. 4) Labs smell food and get fat. Our little mini poodle eats as much as our old lab, and we are fighting to lose a bit more of him If you had a look at my labs pedigree, you would reckon he was a working dog, and he carries on like one. He needed lots of work, lots of exercise, and lots of stimulation. Dam good dog though. Not a family dog. Some funny things.. maybe you would cut a "normal" dog's training session short if he/she did something exceptional not this one. Wanted to go for ever and ever and ever and ever.

"He said that BC were easier to train because they "wanted " to please you." I am no BC fan, and have always wondered whether this "desire to please" (DTP) for short should really be CLB "cringy little b***". .. and has nothing to do with intelligence. I am now waiting for the pot shots at my chosen breeds!! Labs are more GBB "Greedy big B*** ". We often call our old boy Kahilani Rubbish Truck, instead of Kahilani Winning Post". I have heard most of the rude things about poodles, but a few more could be refreshing.

There was sliced bread and then there was crates... I wouldn't ever think about bringing up a pup without one ever again. They are an instant relationship improver, safety device and housetraining aid. BTW I highly reccomend the Culture Clash as does Erny. Some of it is quite funny too.

It's not breed-specific: I have a mini poodle with a dominant personality and had him actually nip my OH once as a pup- the pup was saying, "go away, she's mine and I'm above you in the pack". He's not nipped again since as he was firmly demoted i.e. not allowed on beds/ lounges, OH fed him after making him sit, practicing submissive gestures e.g. shaking paw, drop (lie down) etc. I practice an ounce of prevention etc, after having some hassles form a lab who fancied his chances. We do all the usual stuff, meal goes for walk if not sat for, must sit or drop to go out come in. Not allowed to run amok in house. House rule is obedience title required for access to bed. We don't have the continual no no stuff, but lots of yes yes,TREATS TOYS PLAY and good girl and so if my voice is even slighly raised, it gets heard. I also must say that "Dominance /submission" patterns are a model of particular types of behaviour. Being a model, it dosen't cover all evntualities. Sometimes the word leadership is used. It really is about resource control. I reckon that if you make it the central plank of your "relationship" with your dog, you will miss out on an awful lot