lab and poodle

Mr Herr Rottweiller I used to wonder what your school did as I passed it every Saturday on my way home from the groceries. Now I know so I wont have to pop in to check it out and sample a free lesson with my new dog or tell my friends that it could be an alternative to our local Obedience Club. For that, I thank you. I am very busy and you have saved me time.

Rottweiller. L&P, be nice and if you can't be nice And a be quiet emoticon. It is a very bossy controlling thing to say. I will explain it further if you need me to. I replied "Mr Herr Rotweiller, what the hell gives you the right to tell me what not or what to say or do? I won't be nice about stuff that isn't." Perfectly justified. You might direct other people like this, but never never me.

"Lab and poodle I'm happy to flash my credentials if you are " 1)I have a pst graduate diploma in Adult education (post an Honours degree in Maths).and taught at TAFE for 4 years. I know a little bit about teaching people. I am often told I am a good instructor too. I am very fond of telling people the truth, that I am not the dictionairy on dogs, but these are the (positive) methods that I know have worked. Try them and see for yourself. I have been told I treat people in my class in a positive and respectful manner. I must say that I take classes with a hidden agenda, I wish to encourage people to trial their dogs. 2) I have no credentials at dog training other than my dogs and their behaviour and their titles.(CDX and TDX). My dog is in front of the class with me (at 12.5! and is a wonderful well loved dog by other people and dogs.). My mini poodle looks like she will have a decent crack at TQT when she is 6 or 7 months old. That's all I have and thats why I don't take money for teaching dogs and won't. I expect others to do the same. 3) I have seen both sides of the track though as far as training goes. My old boy experienced a few forced downs induced by me until I learnt better. One was in a puddle. Ever since , he has been a bit wary about puddles. 4)Please have a sense of humour. I am in this to have fun, to be emoitional about my dogs, and hopefully show how good my dogs are by trialling them. My dogs are pets. They live with me. My old boy even gets some time on the bed. The are happy well cared for dogs. Here is my adversive today. I won't use them on dogs often, but humans understand them. Mr Herr Rotweiller, what the hell gives you the right to tell me what not or what to say or do? I won't be nice about stuff that isn't. Forced downs aren't. Show me a peer reviewed article in any well respected journal on companion animal behaviour written in the last five years that says so, and I will review it. This is a democracy. If you don't like what I say, then say so, don't shut me up. If you need for me to be quiet on certain topics be honest . Tell the rest of the listers what these topics are. Retitle this forum so trainers like myself with a divergent point of view don't waste our time.

"I was told off by the trainers for using hand signals because in their eyes dogs need to learn vocal commands first then later on we move to hand signals. " This is so totally stupid, and flies in the face of how dogs operate, i.e great body language poor oral language. I always train with voice and signal. If anything, I fade the voice. I almost bet there experience and ability is poor, and the last time they actually read and observed anything was when they were on their mummy's knee. If they are commercial sue them. As for the drop, the best approach to get these oafs to understand what they are doing is to crack a decent sized crow(pinch) bar over their heads to force a drop on them. You must be really careful doing this though as there is a fair chance that the pinch bar may bend and have no effect on them. if this is so, run. Besides this, the slower the dog, the more care you must take, the more skilful and consistent you must be as a trainer. Look up the APDT, or somewhere where people treat dogs with kindness and compassion and generally put the ironmongery and e gadgets in the bin where they belong. For heavens sake do a fin (shark) check. where are you credentials? Referees? Philospophy? I think dog training is as bad as real estate. Give your dog a hug for me. My OH has always wanted a Mastiff of some kind.

I would support pet dog ownership liscensing. The fatal end words for any breed is "good with families". Labs often with high drives, get stuck in a back yard with stuff all company and either become very depressed, or moving nightmares. Try and keep the tears out of your eyes or the sarcastic words out of your mouth when they finally turn up at a dog club. I think Instructors should be liscensed. I spent a couple of wasted years in a club that taught crap that didn't work, which is what the Chief Instructor wanted dog training to be rather than what it needed to be. She did some unforgivable things to my dog when he was tracking. It took me ages to iron these problems out. What is worse is that she came across as if she had been tracking and been successful too. SHe couldn't get her dog past TQT. I would like to see honesty in pet shops. e.g. "This is a pure bred lab. It has no papers a) becuase it's original breeders never wanted it bred or b) it come out of a puppy mill c) or it is the result of Aunty Cecil mating her mutt with Uncle Gertrude's mutt. (nearly left off the mutt) d) It is a discard As such,the propability of hip dysplasia, elbow problems OCD and other health problems are very high. We suggest you put a couple of k in the bank for these problems. It could be a bit dodgy on the behaviour front so take it home for 6 months and get rid of it, or stick another couple of k in the bank. Now , come in and buy it? I think we need to be honest about training too. Us "positves lot" need to talk about handling treats, no quick fixes, need a brain, need to use it etc. Need some commitment. CAn be frustrting.

I have been going for 7 or 8 years to the same club. I haven't paid fees for donkeys because instructors and committee members don't. I still take my old lab along, he likes to show off in front of the younger dogs. He is still very entusiastic.

The fast treats Cooked liver, herb and garlic sausage, franks, cat food, stras, chicken sausage, lucheon, ham and chicken. I have to cut it up into tiny pieces for my poodle, other wise she spits it out and plays with it.

"If it works, I use it." In so many areas of life, this seems to be the norm, and often it dosen't work. I like to think of the bigger picture. If I give my dog a strong correction, what other behaviours other than the intended one have I clouted as well? We don't have to repeat this experiment, it is available to us. If I continue to use this form of punishment what will happen in the long term?

"The VCA ran some seminars with Gina O'Keefe from WA a while back, she is amazing and works magic with the dogs regardless of breed, personality or size, would be great to see a re-visit. Lea Cogley from Victoria also has invaluable information to share. Helen Read who has Clever Canines and is head instructor of Bellarine Dog Activities Group is pretty amazing too and has taught me so much." I have been influenced by all except Helen Read. I think I learnt more off Lea in a very short period of time than any other trainer. I am victorian too... I was thinking that we should set up a fun day for the Victorian "Positive" clubs when the weather is more satisfactory. I shall float the idea tomorrow. I think Brittanies are really nice. I have seen a couple . I helped some friends change from the "dark side" on one, and it turned around pretty quick. It was a lovely dog.

I thought it would be fun to state what our training methods are even if we use phrases that are cliches. It would also be good to find out who and what inspires others to train. I have also added what my favourite breeds are for training, and my highest level of attainment with dogs. I am a positive(s) trainer. I use any reward that works. I don't operate for long on the ignore the behaviour and it will diminish theory though, becuase is often rewarded elsewhere so I will shut it down. I practice my timing a lot, I use clickers and bridges and drives. I occasionally use verbal corrections. I work hard to keep training interesting for me and the dog. I have been inspired by many Aussie positive trainers. Of the more well known international ones, Patty Ruzzo, Jean Donaldson, John Fisher and Shiela Booth have really got me going.For tracking, Glynn Johnson is without parralell. A local trainer Denise who has trained three Papillions to TcH also inspired me. My old Lab got one pass in UD even though I didn't start to train him formally till he was four, and I changed training methods in the middle of it.He also was best in ring twice in CDX. He also has TDX. At the end of it all, he would track pretty compact M shape patterns spread over only 30 meters that were up to 3 hours old. He inspired me. My favourite breeds for training are Poodles and Labs that have drive and are very foward. I also like GSD's, Most Gun Dogs, Rotties and on and on. I can't train lethargic too well though! As I have to stir, I must add why bother with any other gun dog, when you can have the best a Lab? Just look at the retrieve trial results.(except last years where some strange dog popped it's head up)

Sometimes after spending time explaining non gratia at the dog club or on the web how to do things, I wonder why some get to vote. I reckon i spend a fair bit of time learning new training methods. Can some one "show me the money?". Its the dogs dummy.

"Actually, it's my uderstanding that in UDX they need both versions of drop - the foldback drop from a stand (starts from a bow when they do it themselves, if that makes sense), and also drop from sit - so ideally, we probably need to be teaching them "all positions from all positions", but clubs down here haven't quite got that far yet!" You are right. But I have never taught my dog(s) at the club or at home to drop from a sit since changing to positives, but they have no trouble. We often use a simple change of positions test to "graduate" puppies from Class 1. Not always though. They really seem to catch on quite quickly.

"I don't understand, I'm sorry sounds like great advice, and I would like to work both of my dogs as high in obedience as they can go, but I can't picture what I'm meant to be doing " I understand . I learn't off our club president who saw it on a videotape of an English trainer, Mary Rae. My pup has just been de-sexed so I won't get her to do it right now, but when I do I will post it. I reckon you are off to a good start by stating your goals. Here are some things I am doing after teaching my first dog. 1) Now is not too early to get that prey drive going. 2) This is the right time to introduce metal objects 3) Line up a private trainer when you get caught. Don't let things go wrong for ages before getting help. 4) Go for focus and intensity in heeling for 5-8 minutes rather than long drawn out sessions at the club. Goof of, or do something else if your club does this. 5) Make sure your dog(s) enjoys it. 6) Do a fin (shark) test on your instructors. Find out what their interests are, and whether they have successfully trialled dogs. You might be suprised. 7) Will my dog be rewarded if he does the wrong thing in this exercise? What can I do to stop that?

Iy you are aiming to take them all the way in obedience, you need to lure them so that they go backwards a bit when they drop. You should not drop them from a sit becuase they then tend to go stand sit drop in their minds and be a bit slow and sloppy. If your puppy walks backwards,(dam at this stage) first get them to drop by getting them to get a treat by going under a slightly raised leg. Then move on to dropping them in a backwards scissors movement by luring them with food at about chest level. (Really hard to describe). This is the hard voice of experience. you do not want to untrain you pooch for Open or UD or UDX after getting to drop in an expedient fashion. I do not suggest that you push or pull their legs out or any such physical force. Their is a real danger of injury, it normally causes an oppisitional reflex , and has no basis in training other than a sort of bush dog training lore,and is a short cut to nowhere. It belongs to an era just before Noah.

I socialised my Lab heavily as a young dog, and as such he has been well socialised. He has been in two rather quick fights in his life and is not painful around other dogs. I made a couple of mistakes though,and one was not to insist on a behaviour or behaviours before I allowed him access to other dogs. It would also be wrong to assume that he is a "low" drive dog becuase he certainly isn't. I wouldn't allow my young poodle to get even close to the badly behaved bad tempered dogs that we see most often. I can't afford the vet bills,the hassles, and she is not a one dog repair crew for bad training. I do take her to my dog club, I am fussy as to what dogs she "plays" with , and she needs to do someting before I let her greet another dog. when I trial her, i will not hesitate to yank her from a trial if I feel another dog is unstable. There is a theory that in humankind that children inherit their parent's traumas. It sounds a bit flakey, until you think about how events affect behaviour etc. May be it holds for dogs? As for smacking, I just put that down in humans as a very unimaginative uneducated response to a stressful situation that actually requires a bit of care and forethought.. I just hope that the smackee never gets up and bites you back so to speak.

"A few bits of rubbish flew past, which interested the dog. The owner, felt tension on the lead, and soon enough, corrected the dog. Be aware of what we do at all times. " You are so right!. I have watched this series of postings, and I happily admit to 1) Using Training in Drive (even for a min poodle.. have you seen these ones go!). I even have some Schutzhund Books (Positives only,off course!) on my shelves. 2) Using clickers 3) Using food 4) Being very careful about using adversives. 5) Using normal reward systems I also would have to say that any dog of mine that touched me without invitation almost regardless of circumstances would be in deep trouble. I don't do Schutzhund because 1) I don't own a suitable breed 2) The heeling annoys me 3) The tracking is not my cup of tea. I doubt it's validity, but I doubt competitive tracking as well and still do it. (I have a lab, and I reckon footstep tracking sucks!) 4) The protection work is of concern, not per se, but I am not sure that adequate systems are in place to make sure suitable dogs people are used. I personally wouldn't do it, but my Father has had to rely on his dogs in the past and their training. But as they say, if it floats your boat, dosen't hurt you or your dog or someone else, then it ain't my concern.

"I'm starting to find as we progress, people seem to get more and more competitive just at the classes... " I am well out of this challenge (being an instructor), but can't understand it. I keep on saying "its about the dogs stupid!". I couldn't care less.

All I can give you is my experience with my older dog (a lab),and others that I have taught. I am tired of reading advice about using a choker in a different, more painful way or some other painful device and playing with language about how it works, implying that a dog is some kind of cartesian machine, and the answer is to do whatever you do but harder. I admired Koehler ,who was probably the opposite pole of how I train, because he told it like it was, and didn't use slick language. A humorous definintion of insanity is "repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results" . As far as I am concerned, it pretty well describes this situation. When my dog was 4-5 years old, I trained him through bloody mindeness to CD. He was lethargic, and very "resentful". He was an unrelible around home, and really wasn't what I signed up for! I had been to conventional dog school and tried to minimise the corrections, but I made each one count. Every time I think about how "conventional " schools teach dogs, I need to burst out laughing as it is so ridiculous. Imagine telling you in swahili something , then choking you , and then pushing you into a position as a way of teaching you something.How quick would you be? Well that is how we taught our dogs to sit. I read, and looked, and threw my choker collar away. I made myself give up the constant no's and nagging. When I didn't know, I managed the situation. My dog was tethered in some strange places while I walked around thinking what to do!. It was hard, and hellish. Then, I started to notice some things like him offering me behaviours. He became keen to go out with me. He loved going to our new dog school. I taught him all the CDX exercises and when I did a dummy run, he was so keen he did them all on his own. He started tuning into me. He wanted to "work" . He got through CDX with high marks, and was quick and enthusiatic, so much so that judges used to comment on how "quick" he was for a lab. He was a hell of a lot better around home because he knew what was to do, rather that what he wasn't. He went on to do UD, and in the end what stopped him was his psyhique. He is fun, keen to learn at 12 3/4 full of character, (I still "train" him even now) a delight to be with and an absolute pleasure to have. As a lab, he is food obsessed. He will file his teeth on the pavement to eat dried vomit, but I can also chuck his treat bag in the back with him, along with the groceries and know he will not touch them. He has learned that trying to access resources directly is almost certainly doomed to failure, but by complying with our wishes he has a chance. I learnt a lot from him, so much so that when I looked for my next dog I wanted a ratbag. If you want a further look, try Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson available from www.dogwise.com. I hope you find some of this useful.

I have found on a recall lead that you have to worry about three things to help your further training they are 1) The weight 2) The weight 3) The weight This is so the dog forgets that this exists, and hence can't distinguish this training situation from a real situation. I would not use a lunging rope. What I have found extremely good is water ski rope. It is very strong, and can be got in as small as 4mm diameters. This weighs about 100g per 10 metres.I would use it on a dog as big as a lab no sweat as it has a huge breaking strain.(get over the size) . I also use this for a tracking line for my mini poodle. It is kind on one's hands. The long leads suggested are way to heavy and visible. Put some kind of end on it though! At a latter date, I wouldn't even use a clasp going on to a collar. even this is to heavy and alerts the dog to the lead's presence. I would tie it instead. HAve you sorted out what you are going to do if puppy takes off? Better sort it out now rather than when he/she takes off and you have to respond in the heat of the moment. My perfered method is for them to discover the sudden stop, and then go up the rope towards them and give them a recall that works. And treat.

I entirely agree.

Judging by what you say, Dominace is not the issue. I guess the behaviorist will sort that out with you. A Thought.. For years I worked long hours always with the thought of having a house and a Labrador. Getting a Lab meant I had to make a few comprimises,and one of them was a more regular routine. I kicked up badly, but my OH insisted. I then found that this more regular routine meant I felt better and got more done.. you never know your luck. I then gave up smoking, money was in short supply what shall I do..Train the dog! I then found that this regular diversion really improved how I felt and I got even more done. My old dog got old, and so I needed another dog to train and got my poodle becuase I have an even heavier schedule and need the diversion.. counter intuitve. I have one more month to go before I am off this list and on to some more very serious study( in addition to my relatively senior professional job). I am doing things in my life that weren't even in my Vocab as a child. Where I come from, we are bred pretty tough. We don't show emotion, (watch old All Black film clips, Black Magic winning the Americas Cup after you lot) and I played Rugby as a forward (Lock and or flanker) for more years than my body cares to remember. I am 6ft 1'' and 16 stone.I still let my little poodle see and feel my happiness when she does something right. I am not at all subtle about it, I don't want her to be in two minds what I think. I am not above giving her a cuddle or two,(she burrows into me and makes little cooing noises.My OH is a little annoyed because she has bonded closer to me) and I have a ball with her. I don't care what the pasing traffic think. I am much more concious of what they might be thinking about my face. (I have a slight disability). I still work on NILf (Nothing in life is free) but don't let this Dominance /Submission model rule my dam life. Do you put some good solid time aside to stimulate him? Poodles are so rewarding. I train/play with her for probably an hour a day all up. How much time does he get to just play and explore? I think the backyard might be a bit of an issue, but talk to the expert. (I know poodles can be good apartment dogs but I don't know.) I also think the routine is an issue too, and one or other of you has to catch your dog all the time. This is just meant as a way of sharing my experiences.Hopefully it is helpful. Too often we don't talk about the people issues behind the dog "problem"

All that I wanted to say is that with all this theory, and our trialling we can loose the plot. The aim is to have fun and teach our dogs.My dog is not a pretty lab but comes from a long line of high performing pommy and kiwi labs too. He has never in competition dropped a dumbell or a seekback article or a scent article. But if he did, I wouldn't sweat about it. He has a high prey drive, so for him as Denis said , retrieving is rewarding. Again as Denis said, if he were carrying the Dumb Bell and along came a nice cat to chase (as an example) , carrying the dumbell would be a punishment becuase he would sooner chase the cat.(rewarding). If a dog had a low prey drive, the whole process of carrying the dumbell could be punishing. What some trainers aim to do is establish behaviours as reflexes. The idea here is by repetition and or speed get the behaviour (chain) such that no thought is required by the animal. An example is by using a high number of repititions and shaping for speed, the dog won't get distracted and will operate on reflex only. In human terms this would be a little like an OCD. Here Cognitive and Operant theories are identical. I was being obtuse and funny about the compulsive need to get our dogs to do a particular behaviour. (Not that I have ever done that...). Denis does make a valid point about the relativity fo reward and punishment. One could debate the semantics for a while. I think it is important to understand the basics of this theory, and the semantics are interesting. I am very interested into applying this into feedback theory (not really pysc) . Here we do an "experiment", and observe the outcome. Our next "experiment" is based on this outcome. Several possible outcomes are possible. I see a positive feedback situation (makes the behaviour increase) when my pup jumps up to appease my older dog,(an "experiment") and he barks to tell her to go away and she repeats the appeasement . Negative feedback dampens behaviour down.This can be used and fairly describes dog training sometimes.

1)Is Chomsky in reference to the American linguist, stirrer, and cognitive Psychologist? Skinner will do when it comes to dogs (well I hope so, becuase I don't want to study any more psyc!!), but IMHO is inadequate when dealing with humans. Look I have to say that there is a fair bit of truth in the need to establish the hierachcy but can tell you that many of the elements of how you go about it are disputed. I would say any grooming is good for establishing rank, but initiated by you. I would go as far as enforcing grooming, particually with dog tummy up. Food after you is pretty good, but I wouldn't make a fetish of it. I don't care who goes through the door first,but the main basic principal is who controls the favoured resources. The answer must be you. Simply, NILF. Sit, and dinner happens. I take away dinner, no growls, and it goes back. Growl is dinner gone. Bed , you say when to get up and when to go. Access to house: Not for puppies. You must read if you can "The culture clash" by Jean Donaldson. My little one is crate trained, was toilet trained at 10 weeks,she gets to come out into the house under supervision and on a lead, (so she can't chase the cat) and loves the backyard. I am a little soft with her because she is quite submissive, but probably not as soft as you!! Our lab as a young dog was a pain in the bum. He was very dominant. I could never get him to let him scratch his tummy easily. He constantly mouthed my OH's arms. She resorted to walking him for miles and miles (to calm him down) and of course it didn't work. He was very hard going to train initally and got biffed out of his first dog school. He wasn't shy about showing other dogs what he thought of himself, but got into only 2 fights. After a while, he settled down, and is one of those "character" dogs. Everyone wants to know where he is, and how he is going. The last vestige of dominace is that he will not allow strangers to pat his head (he ducks) , and he is not safe to thether becuase he figures that he owns the spot after 10 minutes and will defend it. He is very watchful over strange tradies etc. I odn't get exposed to a lot of "dominant" dogs, but when I have I have always wondered what was going on, almost feeling cheated, becuase they seem a little soft, and fold up pretty easily once the rules are shown to them.

I reckon they would be "postage stamps" petty flat but boring if a bit of willfulness wasn't there. What have you done for house training? I think you need a lot of admiration for 1) getting some help and 2) publicly acknowledging it. I know I felt pretty bad when I had to get help for our lab at the same sort of age over a different manner when he was the same age. He had assumed that he was head of the house and needed re-organising.

This woman has to teach the dog to trust her again, frankly I wouldnt (actually I'd grab her head and push it into the dirt for treating her dog like that but thats a whole separate issue) I reckon that we should start applying adversives to humans rather than the poor dogs too. I am sick to my back teeth of seeing poor dogs mangled , hung by it's front feet, corrected so harshly that I have to turn away, conditioned to be fearful,as my obedient loose lead walking 12 1/2 year old lab approaches them. I reckon we are bringing up a nation of dog morons. I swear that the nest time I see someone doing this crap, I will give them an earful. The standard is as we approach, S***head handler twists lead around arm and pulls dog away. Sound effects are NO! NO!, or bad boy or something similar. Avoidance path is on to busy road. Highly intelligent. Standard excuse is "my dog isn't very good with other dogs" .!! I wonder why. Next is as above PLUS lift dog off front legs with choker. Der I wonder why dog turns fear aggresive. Nothing to do with the handler. Next is to do first, but have JRT slip collar and embed itself in my dog's neck. After getting dog off, owner punches JRT in face. I did go eye ball to eye ball on this one. Lovely larrikan of a large adolescent cross approaches us. On GL. Walks pretty straight but has slight look at my dog. Not on heel, not on attention. Gets one of the harshest corrections I have seen on a dog yet. In our area it is rare to not have one of the above happen. If you add up the unrestrained S/M crosses with bad tempers who constantly have a go at us and our dog you wonder where the sense went. This is a cross section of what happens to us on a daily basis.