lab and poodle

I can do a class,with my dog with me all the time and feel OK but put me under a microscope in a trail ring and things turn to shite. I do a bit of proofing with my new dog. I have got her used to me doing strange steps, heeling patterns and stuff. She is keyed right off my steps and right on my body. I think it is really important to wait a while if you are nervous before you trial. I pratice practice practice so I know my dog is ready and so am I. My old dog was very friendly and i believe what people would call a tad bit headstrong. I used to hate the tit tat before the start, becuase the longer it went on the more sure that I would be that he would break. (he didn't do this normally!) and it got worse form there.There are some great stewards out there who walk behind you to take your lead. Thank you. I tried a few things. Like telling the truth. "How are you today?" "Bloody nervous, glad when this is over". I think the trndy phrase is getting some power back. What worked for me was " I am going in there, my dog is fantastic, I will have fun, and so will he and so what if a few things go wrong?". When I managed to believe this, very little went wrong. I feel proud of my club. I get a ton of support in and encouragement. I forget how bitchy it can be out there.

My new dog is a miniature poodle. She is great, but very very different to my lab in many ways. I often say I feel like i am cheating when I am training her it seems so easy. She will be trialled in tracking this month for her TQT. I wont obedience trial her for a while, becuase I would like to see a bit more maturity. (so she can cover up for my mistakes!) It is funny, but we very nearly landed up with an english Bullterrier from a woman who was dying of cancer, but we shifted countries before it could happen. I had a couple of best in rings with my lab but never best in trial. That is good.

"This is only one man's opinion, and I dont mean to upset or offend. " None taken. I think there is a fair chance that if a third party was to see us working our older dogs, they would think of both of us,"mean stingy b's, expecting their dogs to do so much for so little" I would be going along rewarding for my dogs best efforts only,raising the bar all the time, and you would be rewarding to not look like a slot machine. Probably the results are similar, I don't know thats part of the reason we trial. In practice, with my older dog, he din't get a lot of rewards for doing stays becuase I hardly ever practised them, and when i did he was in the ring.(Not reccomended for newbies at all!!) But with my new dog, I am not taking any risks. She is a real live wire and staying in one spot is the hardet task of all for her. But, at 6 months she can pretty well do novice stays in company.

"Some dogs will require more motivation than others with both food or toys but you dont need to become a "Human Pez Dispenser" to get your dog to perform a little bit of work during an easy and laid back life for a few minutes a day!" IMHO I think it is important to drop the human talk and do the dog talk. I am pretty sure it isn't work for them, it's just all tricks. When I am training, I never miss the oppurtunity to reward for a better effort. I learn't with my Lab that this policy paid dividends in the ring. I guess from an onlooker's point of view that the rewards would have looked a bit thin too. I never fail to reward heavily for good stays. It is like money in the bank. We all know that behaviour reinforced is strengthened. I haven't had a failed sit or down stay up and including UD yet

How about asking for focus while in the stay and rewarding that? Works very well for me, and I do track my dogs. Remember it is a context shift so you need to be close to your dog at the begining. You then need to get a bridge going so they know they are on the right track etc etc.Then you can extend it to out of sight . I find out of sight proofing is OK when you can dump you dog in the middle of a dog school go away for 10 minues and they are ok.The big secret? Make it very rewarding.

"Yup al the dogs ive trialed were because epople said i'd never get them there now with my current dog i dont have the motivation i used to lol" That is exactly why I trialled my dog, and then continued on. Used to sludge on many a morning getting him ready. (Generally I was going backwards doing stupid things). worked for me. For my new one, I am having a ball, and I can hardly wait to show her off. (she is very cute apparently. Us blokes don't understand this). She has such natural sense of "straight" etc (or am I training her better?)

"My job is Adult Education and Training Developement. I could give you some real horror stories of people in this postion. The sad fact is knowing your subject matter does not make you good at teaching. " It really is a skill in itself, and not everyone has it. I believe that it is akin to acting. You might want to say "Your dog is a time waster" but that is so counter productive, so hard on the handler. My firm belief is that you must look at the dog handler combination and work with both in a positive caring way. It is just as important to shape the handler as it is for the handler to shape the dog. I have experienced all sides of the coin. My lab got kicked out of his first dog school for being very dog and people reactive. He wanted to dominate all the other dogs, and say hello to all the people. My wife couldn't handle him. The solution with him was so simple. It is space, and then dwindle it down. From this experience I like space in my classes. Instructing is a dam hard job. Some days, I feel absolutely drained. It is the old story though, hardly any feedback comes back

Im wondering l&p if you have emialed him about attending one? Few months went by, is the "one day"yet? No I wont. I know from these threads that I am not that interested. I have sat back a bit and watched. You see i like to know what is being taught and how it is being taught. I dont see that. I just see a ton of smoke and mirrors stuff.I am having a ball with what I am doing, and i am getting dam good results. But you go for it. We have had all these discussions before. Again Yes it is current that counts ultimately. It is usually what is measured when perceptions of shock are talked about. But the prelim voltage is quite important too. Skin and muscle tissue is very non linear. I know you all have your pet theories on electricity, so go off and have some fun with them. If you are really interested, ask me.I am an expert at this stuff. The problem i find (and did when i first bought the topic up) is the lack of good solid info. The second problem is trying to patiently explain a problem that has say 5 variables when the audience thinks it has one. The third is that I have no supporters. Look how many people jump to my defence! The big world out there sees it differently. I was quoted as saying that I found the e collar "annoying". I was also quoted as saying that e collars werent the end of the world I also said that i had no problem what so ever with the police using an e collar. As for the police, I find it wasteful and i resent it strongly as a taxpayer that dogs get bounced because they have crooked ears. If a policeman cant hold is own with a dog with a crooked ear, then something is very wrong.(see GSDCV site). I think it is a bullshit attitude. In NZ, we required the police to have Mana and many off them do, just as many of them do here.Sureely a dog with a crooked ear isn't going to hurt! Look I am interested in positive training, you are not. Please advertise your website as such and i wont bother you lot any more.I challenge every one of you to pick up a mainstream positive book and go out there and make just one thing work for your dog even if the idea makes you see red like it originally did for me. Good luck with your dogs, give them a hug from me.

[Have you ever felt the output a modern ecollar produces on yourself? How do police across the Tasman train the dogs and what is it that Australian police isnt doing right? What is your proposed law change - can you give us a bit mroe details pls. 1) Yes I have. I found it annoying. It is irrelevant to how a dog might view it becuase we just don't know.It is actually really hard to measure the response of a dog to a shock.A wee bit like how a battery placed across the tongue gives you a tingle,but held in the hands does nothing.I think an element of fear might exist to how they percieve it. I don't have a view on shock or e collars other than that. From measurements, it would be classified as a shock by the IEC, but that counts for not a lot. I don't think they should be used as a front line method of training, and that their use should be restricted. I would have no problems with the police using them what so ever. I have no opinion on how NZ police train because I don't know for sure. They advertise as being "positive" and one of their handlers cleaned out the service comps with a clicker trained dog at the turn of the century. The main thing is that they use many many more dogs per head of population. (Look up the dog numbers in Vic and NSW versus NZ). I think this helps the police be dog savvy and have a critical mass. Also the police don't usually carry guns so the emphasis is a bit different. Please note I am a cynic at heart. If I had the law change in full, people would have to go to as much trouble to get a dog as they do to get a car. Owning a dog is a priviledge, not a right. They would have to sign bonds to look after and keep their dogs in good health.They would have to pass a theory and practical exam on dogs and behaviour. A criminal record would forfeit your right to own a dog for a period of time.This would clean up a lot of trouble about breeds getting into the wrong hands for the wrong reasons. I would look after some of the "rights" of dogs and other animals too. I really wish people would have a go with some more constructive ways of dealing with their dogs first, rather than grabbing the big guns straight away. That is why I want access restricted to some of these methods. When I was teaching, they talked as if the end of the world would happen if coporal punishment was abolished in Schools. It didn't. What it did is require some creativity and belief in some better methods.I some times took school age classes of so called hard cases. I never had a moments worth of bother. Some of that is my stature, some is the ability to get across leadership without talking.(Others assesment of me). The same thing happens with dogs. I wish chokers were banned. I know as you do it will never happen. You can't ban a piece of chain. I am sick looking out the window seeing some poor dog leading its owner down the street choking 1/2 to death. The good point is that the dog is being walked. The amazing thing is that their owner continues to use a method that just isn't working.

"Being belted a few times by 240 v and even once almost fatal by 415v I could give you a living testimony on what's horribly painful and what's merely unpleasant as I have shocked myself many times on several sensitive locations with an Ecollar." I can actually agree with you on something! I was a liscensed sparkie too which I managed to do while I was a TAFE teacher in NZ. I have had some nasty belts too, none more so than hanging off a 420V DC buss. I did think i was going to die. I used the word unpleasent not dangerous and used a synonym in a human context to explain my point of view deliberately.I find I generally get the best results in my work enviroment if I use encouragement and reward in it's various different guises. It is very similar to my dogs. E (shock) collars aren't the end of the world nor are prong collars. I can see some situations where they may need to be used. As I have said many times before, chuck the chokers. I think average joe finds real dogs, real tools hard to use. I could not imagine the bizzare and funny ways a clicker gets used. I really have no faith in their ability to use tools that are more difficult to use such as pinch and e collars. I have seen dogs trained by less well informed people using these tools and the results are tragic for the dog, the same as chokers.Therefore I want chokers banned, and these other tools restricted so they have to LEARN to use them under guidance if they have too.Thats the law chages I want. I know most aren't as dedicated as I am, and that's life. I hardly use corrections of any sort, becuase I have taught myself how to train so I don't need to. I also like dogs and how they behave.This positive manner rubs off on my dogs too.My poodle has had some mild verbal corrections, my old lab has had some fairly physical ones at times, but I reckon if I was training him now it probably wouldn't happen I need to address one other comment about tracking. Yes I do know about drive. Tracking a dog who is not in drive is a pain in the bum. I trial my dogs when they can handle my bad handling, they are so driven that they wont let me pull them off the track.My lab used to bypass all sorts of distractions,including live animals, food etc. My poodle is ready.(Put all those preconceptions away). I asked my wife to lay a track at the weekend, and not being doggy, she did a bit of a rough job. The starting pole was on the ground in long grass, and I was desperately looking for it. I pulled the lead, it wouldn't move, and my poodle all 6 kg of her was speadeagled across the missing starting post refusing to move. What a dog!!

I don't know whether you will get this; many of the things you say here I could agree with.I am no absolutist . Many I don't. The rules of debate seem to be taking a dive, so I will tell you an ancedote. At work i was talking to a colleague and it turned to how some of the younger people in the place seemed to be very enthusiastic about themselves and their abilities despite evidence to the contrary. He said to me " They were born with long arms" . I said "what?" He said they were born with long arms so it is very comfortable to pat themselves on the back with". It isa bit like this column, you have views and a whole lot of people are running around making you fell good about holding them (except in my case). myszka I find you rude. Check your facts first. Ask me don't tell me. Some manners. I have a relatively long and distinguished career in POWER electronics. I know more about shock than possibly you will ever know. I know how shock collars work. I could design one in very short order. I know about threshold levels. I know how to design safe products. I know how complex the paths are for the current.Despite all this, I will acknowledge that you might see dogs in a different way. I choose to believe that they are living organisms with a fully functioning central nervous system. That is my philosophical point of view.I know that 3KV open circuit is at least unpleasant. Hence shock collars (I don't use euphemisms based on marketing hype) are fairly low on the list of training tools I would use, like planting my boot up a subordinate's bum, But I would prefer them to a choker.

Nekhbet You have made so many assumptions about what I might think and be and what my attitudes are I can't almost be bothered trying to explain it to you. A hint is I truely only dislike two breeds of dog, one of which is a designer dog thats usually white, fluffy and often has poor temperament? Another is that both of my dogs do tracking? Another that my old dog did real life honest to god hunting with me? That I titled my old dog in tracking and obedience? That I plan to do the same with my poodle? That my old boy's temperament is as hard ass as you get for a Lab? Who do you want to ask about that? It is very different to how you worded your response. If the tenor of you response is any guide, the sooner the RSPCA and the law makers move against the gadgets and ironmongery that seem an often unnceessarily cruel part of some dog trainers armory the better. I have moved away from such a training approach , and I just don't buy the "my dog is so tough and is a working dog " excuse any more. If you have managed to annoy me, and I am very sympathetic to keeping all breeds and encouraging owners to train and work them, then what do you think your attitude is doing to your fellow citizens? You called them "average joe shmo" and belittled their responses towards "scary dogs?" They vote too you know.

[The dog training world is pitiful with all the "half cocked mums clubs" and the laws that keep getting introduced are a appauling. Political correctness is rife in the world and it's making people nervous and mistrusting of one another "half cocked mums clubs" So these are much worse are they than grumpy so and so's that don't like the world changing in a way not to their liking doing it for a bob? Frankly there isn't enought respect and courtesy towards different cultures, ages, and people. If this makes some people who lack these graces nervous, all the better. As far as animal laws in this state are concerned, if you can't drive a big Mack Truck through them, then you need a different pair of spectacles. I think they need a lot of tightening, the sooner the better. You wont want to know how , so I wont tell you.

"The rspca are idiots." I have no respect for the ideas on both sides of this debate. It all sucks to me on one side an sounds like knee jerk on the other side.I think it is time to have a dam good look at what a police dog is requred to do, why it is required to do it, and how best that may be achieved. It might be a good idea to have a look across the Tasman at a police force that uses a much higher per capita ratio of dogs, have been using them for much longer and see how they do it differently. I personally have no ideas how it should be done, but I am always sceptical of TINA arguements. (THere is no alternative). Meanwhile I'll chuck a few pennies the RSPCA even though I don't agree with some of what they say, even though I think there PR is crap, even though they aren't radical enough for me. They do do some good things.

"I am going to squirt him with water and see how i go." I hope you are joking. Please don't! Think of how your dog will percieve this. Not only are you leaving, he is getting punished as well. Best is to wind him down emotionally, put him outside gently and ignore him. You really need some good professional help with this, you are setting up some conditions for classic anxiety difficulties.

Some things that I learn't about adult learning too from TAFE teaching 1) Put some of the feelings on the table about learning too. Not everyone has had great educational experiences. I learnt to do some pretty funny things to break down these experiences. I got adult students to do maths in front of the TV (Maths=fun=relaxation). I would give them 1/2 marks for a plot synopsis on the TV programme they watched. Maybe you could do something about stays like this? I used to offer a slab for catching me out before i noticed. 2) Your task is to teach the handler who will teach the dog. We know you could do better with the dog otherwise you wouldn't be teaching the class. 3) Get a bit of humour going if you can. To be honest there is only one safe target and that is you. 4) Make the heeling fun and unpredictable. side steps, backwards one step to halts straight into a down, even for puppies. Reinforces "The main thing i sfocus" Reinforces a good approxiamtion i swoth a reward.

I have seen this myself a little too often myself, except i wouldn't leave it to one breed. I work towards highly animated performances and will sacrifice accuracy to do so. I reckon we won't have our sport for a lot longer if these sad sack performances continue to get marked as they do. if one reads the rules, the space to mark these performances down is already there.

I have been on both sides of the divide and am currently training my black mini. I am also on our commitee. I had two women, one with a GSD fully grown and another with a fully grown bullie decide to do a bit more than take the mickey in my puppy class. To be honest, there was nothing admirable about either dog/handler package , the intellect connected to them or the results. The GSD was showing signs of fear aggression ot my little girl. To suggest that after a while that I did give them a blistering earful on responsibilty, listening to what they were told, and actually practising it would have been an understatement.

I choose to believe that whining or barking inside means they want to go outside. A week or so of this and they generally shutup. I observe a lot of this "adolescence". I think it is more complex than that but with some pretty simple solutions. Cut the nagging,(if you are) and judge the occasional non compliance as a context shift due to the presnce of growth hormones.Hence go back a step. Lure some of the behaviours, increase rather than reduce some of the reward frequencies. Do more with them so you are still the centre of their universe. I am assuming that you are NILFing. My little poodle seems to be letting all this stuff go by, and going from strength to strength. She is extremely satisfying to train. I really don't know wheter it is her,me, the training method, the breed, or the lot.I am trialling her in tracking next month.

Thanks Labandpoodle. Unfortunately, he's not keen to play tug with the dumbbell - I've already taught him to give it up to me when I reach for it! Thank you for acknowledging my help (or lack of it!). I can only work with what has worked for me. I can only look at my results cards and see 29/30,30/30 etc on retireve exercises.I see no confilct between drive and behavourist models for a lot of things. The divide is often a bit artifical. Never mind, have a read and try things out for yourself. I usually rewarded my high prey drive dog for a really good retrieve with guess what, a thrown toy. But I built up the precision of the exercise with the clicker. I think we can overlook the blinking obvious. When dog is moving is it much more likely that a stable mouth position is reached becuase it is neccessary. When the dog is sitting , the situation is different and I think could be plain uncomfortable.

Here is a thought. You can stop this mouthing in the ring with some dogs by 1) Make sure the dumbell is right for them. Make sure that they can get it ot be comfortable in the mouth as they go directly down to the dumbell. 2) Lure what you want. A dog clamping down on the bell can't mouth. Play tug of war with it Click ,bridge whatever you do to to mark the firm clamping down on the dumbbell at the beginning of the tug. Make sure that the rewards are adequate. 3) Do the usual, add a cue and reward for this firm clamping down. 4) Go for duration . Don't muck about with you treats hand them over. You are going for a reflex, you will get it and it isn't that hard,keep your cool. 5) Change the criterea for access to the reward. Reduced mouthing equals reward 5) I have found with some dogs that this process sure as hell increases their focus during retrieve. With my lab, I did do this process and he went pretty good. My poodle dosen't mouth so aren't I lucky. I have seen a couple of GSDs do really well with it, and a Rottie.

I was looking for the following 1) A clear indication and admittance of a problem 2) An explanation as to how it happened 3) What systems were to be put in place so it didn't happen in the future These are commercial standards. At work, at home, I am perfectly reasonable about such things. if i get this, yes I will deal with you, you sound like on the ball people. If I don't, well I will just move on to the next company that does. I didn't hear these things, I just got a truck load of abuse, so I figure it is just another company not worth dealing with. on to the next one...

My club For 1) Must have the most beautiful setting in the world 2) Friendly,positive, wide range of positive training methods 3) Now supervised socialising at the beginning. Have a dam good go at stopping trouble areas before they get a hold. We usually allocate an Instructor for one on one work, even at the expense of amalgamating the senior class. 4) On lead unless told otherwise. My dog once got a bite on the base of his tail by a dob running wild while he was doing pre trial work 5) Unbelievably distracting grounds.Duck shit, barbecues,parties,stray dogs etc. Very good for proofing. Why do locals let their dogs wander in a platypus sanctuary? 6) I get left alone to get on with it with my dog 7) A core of people who are committed and give a stuff. 8) Some excellent patient role models. 9) I don't know what the fees are becuase I have never paid them.(ALways been on the committee or an Instrctor) 10) Couldn't give a stuff about breed/breeds. Just love the dogs. 11) Everyone knows my old dog.It is a ball for him Against 1) The ground is a swamp in winter. 2) Can be hard to teach becuase of (5). 3) Not a lot of triallists, pet orientation,but fantastic trial support help and tips from senior judge 4) A bit lax on times. 5) I am one of the people responsible. I would like in a lot of ways to disappear below the radar with my new dog! 6) Too few instructors. Too few instructors.Have I said it enough!!! 7) Have recovered thank heavens from the chaos that very nearly put me off when i first joined. 8) Some poorly controlled rank aggresive dogs . Pain in the bum, and gives me heartburn when I am taking the class. Wish I had 10 eyes, 20 hands and sixty tongues. But I don't. Tend to manage (all you can do with 15+ in a class) by using space and avoiding off lead exercises with them. I can not handle their dogs for them! 9) The usual predictable bitching that you get when you put a disparate group of people together. It is called storming and is as natural as waves on the beach. I wish I could suppress the yawns when it happens.

"and your judgement without openmindedness to trial" I need two things to be convinced 1) It must work 2) It must be soundly based in theory. If you did my job, which is pretty practical, you learn quickly that both are important. when looking for training I do actually read a wide span. I look at the ideas and I apply the above tests. I read Schutzhund books, Tracking Books, Conventinal training, and of couse posiitve training. I try them out on my dogs. (Yes I still train my Old boy. We have been working through the UDX exercises ). My main objection to violent or force orientated approaches to dogs as that the prognosis for future developement is not good. It dosen't meet either of the two criterea. Therefore it should not be used on other peoples dogs. I freely admit that community and paid clubs have their problems and have a duty of care to make sure this does not happen. I despair about getting the message about this violence across. This despair is even deeper after this experience.I think that when this happens a couple of sticks of gelly so to speak to get some reaction is called for. Unfortunately, no one took the dog's part. No one asked how the dog experienced this forced drop. No one asked what the hell the dog learned. When two people appraoch me in this place I am going to get mauled? What? I am sad for all of us that us dog lovers care so little. Before you start making assumptions about being hopelessly theoretical( try it you will like it ,you don't know what you are talking about) my life has include many years at trade level, a couple of years living on the street during the peak of the last recession, and more violence than you would care to mention. I therefore want no truck of any method that uses this violence on moral grounds as well.