lab and poodle

K9, you again didn't answer the questions after making assertions,you didn't debate the point , you had another go at me, yet you don't know me. what the hell is wrong with you? I really wouldn't want to be associatted with you or your methods if this is how you behave. Of course, you must know everything, and my input on shock and associated issues is not valid. I am glad you have 27 years of experience with electronic engineering and can completely bypass this. You wont give me the data, yet you continue to assert stuff about the safety and nature of the collar. I promise you that if I had a need to buy one, I wouldn't buy it off you. To the moderator: I have no desire to be on this list, it disgusts me. BTW if that vid for your pysio friend was meant to be a demo of prey drive training, it certainly didn't do anything for me. Some one should tell her.

I so feel for you. My OH got stalked by a colleague on a course which dealt with mental health issues. We were dam worried and she wasn't a realtive. As my OH has had 16+ years of experience in the mental health field, and we both have experience in using dogs in mental health settings (there is amazing stuff going on) . You can PM if you want for some suggestions, contacts. It is tricky, sometimes scary, and sometimes a bit hurtful. It can also be very uplifting sometimes. There isn't a lot of room for generalizations though!

"[if you knew RT's or e-collars, you'd know for descriptive purposes it's less of an electric "shock" and more of a "stimulation" (albeit aversive/unpleasant)." I would disagree on the wording (stimulation instead of shock), but agree with the main thought with what I can glean. I would happily post my sources for my disagreement, but frankly it is a red herring and IMHO a distraction form the real issue.I should have isolated Dr Holmes comments "but were far from a desirable training method" about training as you might not agree with this. For this I am sorry.

I am going to state my opinion which is founded on the little facts that I have been able to collect. I am paraphasing Dr Holmes who appeared as a witness for an E collar company in a case against Hugh wirth et al.. He said approx that the e collars were unlikely to cause damage to a dog but were far from a desirable training method. He also suggested that they acted as an unpleasnt slighly painful agent. I believe in this case that the process of discovery allowed that this was so. Erny agreed with tis finding in an earielr posting. I do not think that e collars are a worse /better adversive than many others. The question mark is a) Do we use adversives b) When do we use adversives, what situations why? I am annoyed with the unwarranted perrenial personal attacks in this columns. As far as I am concerned they say a hell of a lot about the self discipline and subject content of those that to do it than the recipient. I always wonder what is going on that it is requred that people stoop to these levels? We aren't pollies! It does not attract me and believe you me I read very widely, search widely,can easily put aside differences if neccessary and incorporate lots of different parts of methods into my work with my dogs and others. one may wonder what the hell ther is to hide when stuff like this happens. I have a further question from K9force. How is it that the level from an "e" collar is regarded as a stimulation? Is it to do with the drive model of a dog's behaviour, or is it in comparison with a TENS machine in physio? How do you compare the operation of each? I would like to see facts, figures, and references please. As you can imagine, I am an Amateur, and do not spend a lot of time musing about these devices. Such info is easier for you to find, my be your physio friend(s) can help you. I don't mind interpreting data in my role as an engineer or have another do it to once and for all get a reasonable idea of how these things work. BTW MDS sheets are a cop out crock of shite. I think with a MDS sheet was written for water, they would have to warn of its drowning and overdose effects. I am suprised about the citronella /electric collar comparison. Last I heard it was the other way around.(80/90% success rate, Dr John Fisher mentioned in his book Dogwise). He also suggested that based on reaction tests done on dogs in a controlled trial, they reacted in a completely different way to cintronella. I would like to know how to got to your number, how many dogs you tested, what variables were in the trial. etc. It is so different to these other numbers that I wondered whether you had considered publishing it along with your methodology in a peer reviewed publication so others in the dog world may share your knowledge? It is so startlingly different to these results, truely remarkable.

Look I think the tests are perfectly fine well balanced scientific foolproof tests as it makes both of mine look like einsteins and they are the two best dogs in the world . I am not breed , owner blind , or searching for a particular set of skills either.

I think your timing must be very good, you must have an innate sense of your dog's needs to be doing so well. I have a poodle, who isn't a foodie by any stretch of the imagination. If I put her tea down and asked her to drop, she would but would then try and get me to pick her up and have a cuddle first. So I gathered that she likes cuddles. So I just have to make sure that the nighbours aren't watching before I do any training. Some practicals:IMHO with classes, about 90% of food troubles are If you are grazing, it might be time to stop. My vet says it aint so hot for the dogs in any case. Sometimes (of course I don't have trouble with this!) we have a tendency to overfeed our dogs. The old rib feel test is not a bad one. I sometimes train her before breakfast. Thats as far as I go with meal manipulation . My top total winner food treats are 1) herb sausages 2) Dried Lamb 3) Dried Fish I use about 5 or 6 others too. If you PM me, I will give you the email address for lamb and fish When I have time, I will post a topic on simple palatability testing for your dog . Did you know some labs can actually distinguish between the meal and the plates?

"But that's what these working dogs are SUPPOSED to be like!! " I sometimes wonder wheter the popularity of the lab as a "Family dog" has detracted some of it's working dog ability's. So many I see in class seem well, flat with no get up and go. A few can't even retrieve. I notice that a lot of these do orignate from backyard breeders.

"are they pure bred labradors, they move so fast and jump so well". I often got asked this question with my boy, sometimes by judges in obedience, sometimes by otehr Lab owners.!! Now it is he isn't 13 is he? he is so lively must be 6 or 7. My lab can't move that quick. Yes they should be muscled and fast and have a ton of endurance, and they shouldn't be huge.They should have a waist and be on the move and you should feel and see their ribs. They should go up steep river banks like there is nothing in the way. If they can't, they are a show pony. My preference is towards the working end, and been the great working dogs they are if you chucked them in the agility ring they would pluck an AD from somewhere. The problem is that "the pretty little black thing" (that's what i think my old boy calls her) that I also have would have been around the ring 1/2 way again. Also, got to give something else to the BC's to bloody win!

intelligent, they can turn the most sternest trainer/handler into a quivering mass of malleable softie!???? I don't know, but if someone told me ten years ago that I would have a poodle and having lots of fun with her, well I would have laughed my socks off. She can manipulate me into letting herself sit on my lap, she sometimes gets "taxi rides" to the door (she makes me pick her up) you know the rest of it. On dobermans, I must say I have heard the comparison about GSDS and Rotties and what the police say in other countries as well! The one I heard is that GSDS would go for it and go on about it aftrewards, rotties would simply go for it and be slow about it, and dobermans would send their masters. I have met a lot of fine female dobermans, one biting my own dogs bum (he nearly deserved it. They seemed to snipe at each other for ages..weeks and weeks) and a couple of very intimidating males. One time my OH let me sit while we were visiting some people while this dobe sat in front of me staring me down, wouldn't let me move or speak for at least one hour (I think) until his dam owner stopped yabbering and noticed my plight. She then suggested that our dog play with him. we let him out the back, and 15 sec later, I swear there was a brown lab trying to knock the door down and get let back in. I guess he got a bit of his own medicine.

Based on one on one samples, My poodle is smarter than my lab in most things, but dosen't get close to him in some street smarts such as "since i am not allowed to have a bone in the house, if i balance it on the door frame will that count?" and stuff like that. He has a superb memory. It is very easy to see why they make such good guide dogs. You might try to use say three destinations from your house and attach names to them, and see how quicky your dog learns them. Form my observations over a decade or so, not being objective either, I would have to say that the BC's I have seen are generally very smart, almost too quick for their owners. GSD's are usually very good too, if you can get past some of the temperament problems. Goldies are consistently smart,right up there.I saw a goldie out perform my little girl from week to week, but tailored off due to lack of owner interest. I have a theory that JRT's are often over looked becuase their owners are just not quick enough with them. Now I haven't seen a slow NSDTR either, (sometimes a bit shy tending towards fear aggression??) and I would fancy my chances if if they didn't have a long coat. That way I would get my OH to agree to have one. I think that choice of training method is important too, becuase some dogs aren't that good with some training methods. To be honest, there are only a few breeds I wouldn't do much obedience with, but I still like the dogs and can appreciate them for what they are. These are dogs roughly in the hound and mastiff sub groupings. There are a few toy breeds that are a bit hard to work with too!!

"Sue Hogben" .You super lucky people. I can't believe your luck. I think i will shift!!

I don't live in Perth but, Northern Suburbs Ob. Club has an Aus. wide reputation since Gina O'Keefe (Head Instructor) there has been running seminars in the Eastern States. Gina has top trialling results with scores of 199-200 and the club is run using positive reinforcement techniques. You lucky perthites. I would travel many miles to go to a club where she teaches....

I am very happy with how my young dog is turning out. I have taught this one with positives, Mostly R+ P-) mostly clicker, but a bit of drive developement and manipulation too, but in some ways layerered her experiences which is very sound educationally. Other than the basics, I have taught her the foundations of many things including retrieve, SD, heeling etc.In many dog club structures the dogs get heeled to death and turned off at a very early age.If they get this near perfect then they go on. ( i sometimes joke that this is the way BC owners make sure gundogs don't take over the obedience world )This isn't a great way to teach handlers or dogs. By the time a few dogs get through this and get to trial, the only ones that then progress are those that have an enormous retrieve drive. Time to check the retreve end of things out is at 8 weeks when you bring him/her home. I don't do the detail stuff too often yet, keep the sessions short and sweet almost tease her a bit. I have done tracking with her, and am progressing this as she took to it like a duck to water. A real pleasure to track. Great in dog school class too, I am very proud of her. I have no intention of trialling her in obedience till she is quite a bit older.(18 months+). Here is a photo of my dog retrieving a SD article at 5 months. I must stress I am not the pushy type with dogs. I back off very quickly when I sense confusion or too much stress.

1 horse leather lunge lead 1 4ft leather lead 1 lab symbol lead 2 lab symbol collars 1 leather collar for lab 1 leather tracking harness (which anyone can have if they give me a good story. too bloody heavy) 1 preimer harness from pawmark.com (very nice) 1 premier easywalk (not used yet) 1 figure 8 harness from sarda workshop (very useful) 1 polyprop lead from sarda workshop (really nice) 4 lab sized dumbells 3 SD kits 1 set of Sd leathers for seek back 3 sets of white gloves 1 Halti for lab Untold toys for lab UD frame buckets plus planks for jumps broad jump set box for jackpot Poodle 4 leads 3 collars (including poodle one) 1 premier harness (really nice) 1 polyprop tracking lead from pawmark.com (really nice) 1 Halti 1 set of light weight jumps (on the way) 1 agility tunnel 5 dumbells 1 set of 20 UD metals Untold toys and she is only 7 months. don't worry she doesn't get to use the jumps yet.

"Can I train my labradors to herd? Sure with training. Are they going to win and/or be good or naturals at herding NO. Would they be suitable as guide dogs for the visually impaired with the correct training. No. " This is a good point. I got a poodle becuase I wanted an agility and obedience dog who could do tracking. With all the will in the world, you couldn't call Labs elegant precise dogs. I personally wouldn't put a Lab around an agility course that was built to standard. And I certainly wouldn't expect them to do completely brillantly in tracking, (becuase they trail and becuase I probably wouldn't be bothered about it) BUT I think they are bred to be a retrieving dog par excellent, and If I wanted a working sniffing,SAR hunting dog I wouldn't look further. I would probably do a little obedience to show what they can do . The poodle is an entirely different type of dog,and mine could do well in any of agility ,obedinece,tracking becuae she has the innate drives ability and temperament. But if I got lost in the bush i sure as hell hope they send a lab after me!