Griffo

You have done a wonderful job with her, she is beautiful.

Sujo, Have you considered contacting the local paper about your situation or at least threatening the council that you will? I can not believe how you are being treated!! Shocking!! Everyone else who is having problems with these off lead / roaming dogs, I would encourage you to take a camera with you whenever you go out so that you can photograph the animal - you shouldn't have to but it might help your case. I have started taking a camera with me and I will continue to. It is very difficult to protect yourself and take a photo at the same time but you never know when the opportunity might arise? Makes me so angry that people will put their dogs in these situations - how hard is it to contain them or keep them on a lead?

Dee Lee, if it happens again do your best to keep your dog tucked behind your back and try to keep yourself between your own dog and the attacking the dog so your dog doesn't get hurt physically. In my experience the worst damage in these incidents are done to the dogs psyche - my dog is on edge the whole time we run past this particular house. I also find that making a huge amount of noise, yelling at the dog in a growl (like you would do to your dog if it was being naughty) and throwing rocks at it can buy you some time. When it comes to protecting my dog i really couldn't care how stupid i look to other people.

Wow these responses really surprise me. The ranger in my area has been so helpful and intent on action. I am surprised that people are having problems like these considering the publicity dog attacks have received in the media of late. The ranger who came to see me yesterday told me that he was heading off to seize a few dogs around the area who have bitten people and they will be put to sleep. One was a rotti who had killed a poodle, another was a pair of dingos who had attacked an elderly woman. I had to report the incident twice, first time the owners were given a verbal warning. The second time I reported it, a fine was issued. However I had given the owners so many chances to do he right thing - I know that dogs can escape accidentally so I tried to be understanding the first few times - but eventually I realised that the owners just didn't give a shit about them harassing other people. The Ranger has encouraged me to take a camera with me to take a photo next time it happens. This will be difficult to do, as most of you know you are too busy trying not to get mauled to think about photographing the incident!!

I actually just had a ranger over at my house this morning taking a statement off me about some local dogs who keep crossing the road to bail me up aggressively while I am running along a local bike path. Even though I have avoided getting bitten by the dogs so far, they took it very seriously and have now issued the owners with a $550 fine. Who knows what would have happened if it had been a child walking past? The ranger told me that if the dog rushes me again then he will keep issuing them with fines and we can even take it a step further and have the dog declared dangerous. In my case the process was very simple and quick with no fuss at all. Some of my family were against me reporting the incidents in case of repercussions e.g. my dogs being poisoned in revenge. I decided to do it anyway because there comes a time when you need to stop being fearful of what could happen and do the right thing. People need to start reporting these roaming dogs before the situation gets to the point where people are attacked - for the sake of the dog and the public. Usually they begin by showing aggressive behaviour and then this progresses into bites and attacks. The dogs from the OP will attack someone else if nothing is done, so good on you for reporting it. It is not your fault and you are not in the wrong. I hope your son recovers ok.

did you get mine erny?

What is so evil about that word?I am happy you see the use of the e-collar as such a wonderful tool, and I agree with you. If someone posted on here it only took me 5 mins with a prong collar and didn't need to resort to an e-collar...nothing would be said.. I am sure. But because someone chooses to use clicker training, condescending remarks were made. I myself am not a fan of clicker training for obedience, but I don't put down someone for making that choice. I choose to educate on why I believe it's not a good training method for all dogs. I do not condem those that choose to use that method. If a method works for a person, I am happy for them. If it doesn't work for them or their dog, I hope with all my heart they seek out an alternative method. May I ask why you take Helen's remark as a personal attack on you, for using an e-collar? Hasn't she a right to her opinion..right or wrong in others eyes? I dont think anyone had a problem with the fact that she's trained her dog with a clicker, i believe marker training is great and i use it with my dog (although i dont use a clicker)... i think it was the way in which the post was written. I dont believe the fact it took her "5 minutes" was a helpful or encouraging comment for anyone. I didnt take Helen's comment as a personal attack one little bit, i dont think anyone has personally attacked her, just what she wrote. A personal attack goes further than focussing on what a person wrote and i dont believe that has happened in any shape or form in this thread. What i did have a problem with is HER attacking one of the best trainers we will ever have on this forum and stating his conduct was unprofessional when it was not in the slightest. He merely wrote what a lot of us were thinking... well it verbalised the first thought i had when i read her post anyway. I think anyone who posts that they "put a prong on their dog and their dog was perfect within 5 minutes"(fullstop, end of post) is an idiot. If that was coupled with some sound advice about the training needed in addition to the tool then that would make it a worthwhile post which could actually help other people. Otherwise it is just a "look at me, im so good" post which can have the unfortunate addition of putting the rest of us down who have tried and failed with that method. I would still like to know why people think of the ecollar as a resort...the original user of this word has not answered that for me, of course it is their right to say that, i dont argue with that, i would just like them clarify what they wrote.

Well said MarkS - I couldn't have said it better myself. It's always interesting to hear the different methods people use. I don't know a lot about the e-collar but it's certainly very interesting in reading the success BP is having. It's also great that the clicker works so well for Helen and I felt that maybe she didn't intend to imply that the e-collar was a bad thing, but just that she was using a clicker and it works for her. Sorry i dont see what was so wonderful and enlightening about your post MarkS. I also would like to know why people seem to think using an ecollar is a"resort"....?? it is a brilliant method of communication with a dog and it is much less confusing than many of the other methods people use before making the huge and horrible "resort" to the ecollar. I will be starting all my future dogs off with the ecollar from the word go. The way the post was written was condescending IMO... "oh it only took me 5 mins to train my dog" such a useless and comment with no substance to it.

Actually Kelpiechick was spot on about my post. I simply made a remark that I haven't had to resort to this training with my dogs (they will come to me when called which was what the post was supposedly about at that point in time). I made no comment about K9 Force excpect in response to a very unprofessional post - in fact when I had posted the only comment he had made was regarding an anti-bark collar which, in reality, I would love to give as a gift to one of my neighbours whose barking dog is driving me mad - I actually had to go back and read to make sure as I only read the beginning of the post and hadn't even read his post at all, I don't know where the argument is. Yeah and your comments were very immature and condescending and you may as well have written "my dog's better than yours". Not everyone has the luxury of an easy dog who will be trained in "5 minutes". And what on earth do you mean by "resort" to the ecollar?? K9Force is far from unprofessional, make a stupid comment then you will probably get an answer you dont like.

There is a german shepherd dog club which operates out of the Hillsborough show ground/ training facility. However, from personal experiences, i would not recommend it.

Congratulations on your hard work and dedication to your dogs, now that is love. I really enjoyed reading your story, and it is amazing that such a huge change has occurred within 3 weeks... it just shows how consistent you have been with your new program and leadership... !! There are a lot of us dog owners out there who breath a huge sigh of relief and thank god for steve otherwise things would have been much different.

I don't think it is as simple as that. The dog knows when the line is on that under any circumstance/condition it has to obey, but it also knows that once the line is removed then all bets are off. To proof your dog you would need to implement the use of an ecollar or very slowly retrain your dog with no line...all over again (at least they'd know the "come" command this time). Starting in a very low distraction area (your back yard) and then increasing it (your back yard with a food bowl in it, your back yard with a gate open, just outside the gate) ... blah blah blah. Once you have started the training outside of the yard to increase the distraction level, this has its risks, especially depending on how pack driven your dog is. You would reduce the risk by increasing distractions extremely slowly... but if it was me, i would prefer to progress a bit faster and have the safety of an ecollar.

Are you ranked above the other dogs in the pack? Unless she is a rank dog then i doubt she would be trying to dominate you... does she accept being the lowest ranked dog in your pack? Has she shown any aggression towards the higher ranked dogs in your pack? It sounds like excitement to me, from when you say she is doing it. If that is the case then she just needs to be taught that jumping up is no longer comfortable.

I think so. There are things you can do to overcome this from happening. I just have to show my dog the ecollar and her behaviour dramatically improves. However at the same time lately i have only been using it or her for barking (for a number of different reasons). With a bit of work tho i am sure this could be fixed tho so she was not so collar smart. However whether it is not a training tool when on her because of her being collar smart, i think not for the following reasons... Although seeing it makes her behaviour improve, she still has taken commands she learnt a year ago when using the collar and applies it now without the collar. also, Although my dog knows that the prong collar is a different collar, she still obeys the "slow" command on a flat collar, i taught "slow" to her using the prong collar. I also taught her a few other commands using the ecollar which she still obeys now when on no collar.

Some dogs learn a sequence of behaviours... i have to growl, put my hackles up, step forward 5 steps... they end up with a whole chain of events which they believe they must go thru to guarantee their safety every time a certian situation arises ... if, heaven forbid, they do not raise their hackles, then the world might come crashing down around them. If this behaviour has worked for them then they will continue on with it, refining it a bit to make it more effective (maybe adding a bite into the sequence...) and it will become a habit. Sometimes it takes a tool like a muzzle to show the dog that the world will not come crashing down if they don't bite.... and they can even have a more positive experience without biting. Therefore having the muzzle on the dog has taken away the opportunity to bite and even given them a positive experience to start tipping the scales. i think it might cross over into being a training tool in that instance.

That when we think we are loving our dogs, we aren't really loving them enough to be doing them any favours. We need to "love" them in ways they need and are less likely to become confused by. I see this so many times.... "oh i love him too much to not feed him off my plate".... but you dont love him enough to put his best interest first.

I agree that a prong collar can fall into a management category when training isnt coupled with it. However i cant see how a haltie can fall into that category. The timing of corrections are not precise so it cant possibly train the dog. Off the top of my head, a good management tool will be training the whole time it is implemented. I cant think of a situation where it wouldnt be. Even something as simple as a tie-out is training your dog. Barking collars, counter surfing stoppers, they are training your dog, however in my eyes are also a management tool. Even ecollars the "remote trainer" can be a management tool when used in certain ways... for example i used my ecollar to stop my dog making long eye contact with other dogs..this managed the problem but at the same it was training her that being near other dogs is not always bad. I think the answer to that question depends on individual management tools, situations and dogs. I think it also depends on the confidence of the handler and whether they are ready to take the next step with their dog.

The other day we had a stray dog wandering around the front of our house. A minute later her owner came running around the corner and called her... the dog sprinted to the owner, i mean sprinted. Then when she got there, the owner hit her and told her how naughty she was. I could not believe it. I said to her.. she isnt going to come back to you if you hit her for doing it.

wonderful post.

Firstly i would be checking leadership to make sure it is right on track.... make sure you are implementing programs like NILF, TOT etc. If your leadership is in order then.. Put her on a good correction collar (prongs work a treat, but you might get away with a choker). Put your foot on the lead so she has no idea you are involved with the correction, then encourage her to jump up. She will get a correction which wont be associated with you. Encourage her a few times to jump up ensuring you keep your foot on the lead, until she chooses not to. The best way to train your dog is to put them in a position where the right behaviour is a choice they make themselves ... and the wrong behaviour is uncomfortable. You are making the wrong behaviour uncomfortable which will cause the dog to choose the right behaviour. Some people believe that this may damage the relationship between you and your dog, but that is not the case at all. You are happily encouraging her to jump up, your not even holding the lead, your body is not yanking anything, in the dog's eyes you are the good happy person standing there doing nothing and the correction is happening from unknown source. No damage to rship at all. You should only need to do it a few times, maybe on a few different occasions depending on how imbedded the behaviour is. The problem waiting for the behaviour to occur on its own is that behaviours like this often happen at times where you are coming home from work, walking in the gate, your hands are full, the dog doesnt usually have a lead and correction collar all set up ready to go, so it is very unpractical. It is better to set the situation up so the only result possible is success rather than giving the dog more opportunities to practice the behaviour.

Tony, i understand that, i hesitate to call them a management tool as they aren't even that good IMO. Masking tool is a much better term!! I think a management tool can lead to training, hence it being a training tool. For example, in the beginning of my dog's program, i used to crate her when people came around. That would manage the problem in the sense she couldn't attack, but at the same time it was training her, and resulted in us being able to move to the next step.

that's so sad... RIP Lucky What a stunning boy he is....He looks way younger than 11...

Tony, that's a great post!! The funny thing is, i see this happening with non rescue dogs too... Some owners seem to obsess over their dog looking lonely or sad or left out ... putting all these human emotions onto them which usually turn around to bite them in the bum.

I really have no more time to repeat myself...got too much work, i think we will just have to agree to disagree. I strongly disagree with most of what you have written. I dont think this discussion is getting us anywhere, perhaps it stems from you having a breed that you would like to believe takes a really special person to raise, when in actual fact it comes down to patience, perseverance, knowledge about dogs & correct handler and training methods. Perhaps it comes from your own failings as a trainer (or experiences with other trainers) and you would like to think that there was another reason other than lack of competence (ie it's just the way the breed is...it's untrainable, unfixable). I am sure you will have some other reasons, like it's beacuse i've only owned a GSD (well actually i have owned several different breeds..."difficult" ones included), i have helped many owners with their dog problems extensively from all different breeds...oh including a ACDs... so i really dont believe my experience with different breeds is limited. Or maybe it is because i am arrogant & ignorant, yep okay, if you say so...that's why i have spent hours upon hours upon hours going to as many courses on dogs' behaviour as i can find...just to fuel my ignorance!! Any dog can be a lunatic, regardless of the breed. Any dog can be soft, regardless of the breed. It is the dog's drives, temperament, handler, training methods etc where the problems arise, not the dog's breed/name. You can have the same problems within breeds or between breeds. Enjoy the rest of your discussion... and thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, it was interesting!

Lets look at it a bit more broadly than that. We are not just talking about prey drive in a LGB here... What I believe is, because a dog is a certain breed, it doesn't mean it WILL have high prey drive. It doesn't mean it WILL have low rank drive, it doesn't mean it WILL have high food drive, it doesn't mean that it WILL be hard or soft. Giving answers based on the accepted "norm" for a breed is not a good answer to give. Breed specific advice on training doesnt seem to be any different to drive/temperament/behaviour specific advice to me. ------------ This is how i am seeing what your saying about breeds being important in diagnosing and programming for a problem... ------------ Dog x has these problems, we have diagnosed and put a program in place for the dog...(1) Suddenly we found out that dog x is actually breed Y... well lets throw that program away because it no longer applies, so lets re program with breed Y in mind....(2) Oops we made a mistake, dog x is not breed Y, it is actually breed H, well lets throw out program 1 & 2 and come up with something different, well actually come to think of it, those behaviours are just normal for breed H, it is just the way breed H is. So live with it. If it was breed Y tho, we could fix it... if it was an unknown breed, we could have fixed it too... ------------------