Training & Personal Space

[hopenfox]

I've had my Kelpie, Link for 8 months (and adopted him when he was an unsocialised 10 month old) and am still struggling with his training due to his personal space issues.

During training, he doesn't like to come closer than maybe a metre from me, and if I move closer (even side on), or lure him closer, he leans back further and further until he falls over, or if I forget myself and move quickly, he'll leap up and jump back to keep the distance. In a drop, he'll prostrate himself, the closer I get, till he rolls completely over. He also wants to always face me straight on, and isn't happy if I try to position him side-on to me.

I had hoped to Obedience trial him one day, but there's no way he'll come close enough to heel or even sit at my side right now.

When I'm not focused on him, he will come up close to my side for a pat.

Do you think it's just a matter of trust? Will time allow me closer? Or could it just be his instinct? He has a huge natural cast that he uses all the time during games with my other dogs and while fly & sheep herding. Maybe he's trying to cast around me and get to 'my head'?

Can anyone suggest ways I can teach him to WANT to be close to me? Or is this something I have to accept?

[Cosmolo]

Its impossible to say without seeing his body language while he is doing it wherthe its a cast/ herding type or fearful behaviour or combination of both. I would be tempted (depending on his personality) to do some lead pressure exercises and use the food as a reward rather than a lure OR teach him to target which would be suited no matter what his personality!!

Edited December 22, 2010 by Cosmolo

[PAX]

I think this can be a common problem with working dogs, they are naturally very aware of body space and pressure..

I teach mine to weave between my legs, and to present through my legs, also throwing food through you legs, any tricks you can think of to get them in close and feel safe.

[Vickie]

I was just about to type some suggestions & then held off as I saw pax was posting.

What she said

[Vickie]

Does he chase/retrieve balls hopenfox?

I have helped a number of pressure sensitive WK's by using a tennis ball.

If not, you can do it with food, it just takes a little longer. For now I would start by feeding every single morsel he eats from your hand while he is in a lateral position. Never command or reward him for anything while he is facing you.

It is possible to get him closer from a face to face position, but he will continue to face you, so better to work on the lateral position first as you will only have to fix that later.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Vickie

[superminty]

Agree that this is common in working kelpies. It's in their blood to respect personal space.

My own boy hates to be at my side - he much prefers to be at "balance" as if there were stock in between us. I cannot get him to walk parallel and close to me - he is always a metre out or if lured in close, he side tracks majorly.

He is a bit less sensitive about personal space than Link sounds but will not come in close for a nice obedience "front" unless lured. Even lured, he will sit back and stretch his nose forwards as far as he can rather than moving closer.

You could try shaping contact i.e. touching/targetting your body with his nose/shoulder/hip etc, anything that teaches him that it is ok to "invade" your personal space.

[kelpiechick]

One of my kelpies was very much like this for a long time - given the choice when running agility he would still prefer to work away from me than in close. (Gamblers is his favourite event) When we first got into Masters he used to just about have a melt down when he needed to be tight and close on certain sections of a course, but over time he has become OK with it.

Circle running really helped, with all the rewards coming from close to my leg. Foundation exercises like hand touches are good too as Superminty mentioned. I have seen some trainers use a clothes peg to build value for and than attach it to their pants to keep dog targeting in close. Also be aware when in close that you are moving absolutely straight, it only takes literally a couple of centimetres of moving into his space to send him heading out away from me again.

Have the opposite problem with my BC - keep tripping over her

[BMAK]

most kelpies you will see are a dog with a love of personal space when it comes to most things!

He may have had a bad incident that has stopped him from trusting people??

8 months is a while, but he still may need time, he may just not like being close to people?

Let him work his way to you rather than force him to be there and high value rewards when he comes close.

Clicker training and Targeting with high value rewards might work with either food or toy rewards, bonding time through activites ??

With my parents old cat ( i know, not a dog but still) when i was much younger my mother said just to ignore her and she will come.

Being a young kid i would pester her because she wouldn't come to me but she would go to my mum even thought mum hardly ever patted her she was quite independant and not a cat that would come close most of the time so ignoring her worked for the cat, then again differnt kettle of fish.

Good luck

[Erny]

I think this can be a common problem with working dogs, they are naturally very aware of body space and pressure..

I teach mine to weave between my legs, and to present through my legs, also throwing food through you legs, any tricks you can think of to get them in close and feel safe.

Lol .... my boy definitely does NOT have any space issues. This was NOT planned (although it has been trained for) ... I was busy talking to the camera person at the time :

I agree with many of the suggestions given here, especially the leg weaving and the rewarding for being on-side rather than at front. Also train for 'heel' as being the static position and get that going well before you place forward movement to it. In fact, train for the pivot before you place forward movement to it as well. That should help with the distance issue you have. But I think the leg weaving will help as a beginner towards getting your dog comfortable enough to be able to start the static heel. And if I'm not making the slightest bit of sense, please let me know and I'll explain betterer .

Edited December 22, 2010 by Erny

[Leema]

Does your dog know how to target your hand? (touch your hand)

This would be the first thing I would try to teach, that touching you actually has rewards. Either a nose or foot bop on your hand would be a good start.

Then you could train a shoulder touch to your left leg, in preparation for heelwork.

If you have an open space that is at your disposal, and safe for your dog to be offlead, I would try to teach my dog that proximity to me is good. Especially if I've adopted a heelwork posture.

This would mean simply taking yourself for a walk and C&T your dog for following you or being close to you. Reward the dog with food from your hand, to further draw the dog close to you (dogs gravitate to where their rewards are delivered).

I realise both these descriptions are rather brief, so do let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on either.

[Erny]

Oh .... also try averting your gaze. It should initially help to make your dog a bit more comfortable about being up close and personal .

Edited December 23, 2010 by Erny

[hopenfox]

Yay! All wonderfully helpful tips. Lots to work with here; thanks everyone.

I'll start with touch, I think...and only reward for other things when he isn't facing me. Oh and I've been averting my gaze for a while now, but he seems to be just as affected by my body direction and distance as where I'm looking.

My first training issue with Link was trying to find a reward or motivator I could use. He'll eat food treats, but is easily distracted from them. He plays sometimes with toys by himself, but acts like he can't even see the toy if I pick it up! I finally discovered he will play with a flirt pole, so now I have two different ones that he loves.

He also has an anxiety kind of thing he does whenever he's unsure or worried about something - he hunts and chases flies relentlessly with complete and total focus. So with each new thing or place I train I have to get past his fly hunting before I get anywhere in his training.

After the super easy training of Fox, Link is exhausting! Fox is the opposite of Link - very confident, loves to learn, follows me everywhere, loves all toys and food, and his favourite place to be is pressed against me.

[Leema]

Sounds like you have some problems finding things that are really reinforcing for Fox.

Is he more confident at home? Perhaps you should start by making training at home very rewarding. You might be able to find a food Fox particularly likes (I find the "4 Legs" stuff good as a special training treat, or chicken hearts), or you could try perhaps fasting Fox for a day (or more) before training. In fact, I'd be inclined to only feed Fox during training sessions to increase the value of yourself and working with you.

At home, I'd train interacting with you (e.g. a touch) and also you interacting with him - that would mean rewarding him for increasingly more physical/overwhelming interactions. I once did this with a dog that would act aggressively if you were to make any 'fast movements' toward the dog. I C&Ted first my hand going towards the dog, then actually touching the dog, and then slowly touching the dog in a more rough and overwhelming way (i.e. hand over the top of the dog, arm over the top of the dog, grab of coat, etc). This same process would work for Fox to let him understand that you touching him is actually good.

You could also use the same process to C&T you looking at Fox or having direct body positioning towards him - so again, he associates you looking at him as a good thing.

Re: The fly chasing game, you might find some value in "Control Unleashed". This book has several games that you could play ("Look at that" game and games about choosing to work).

Hope that helps.

[corvus]

What happens if you lean away from him? Will he come closer? I am often impressed by how much difference a simple shift in body weight can make in pressure. I have a hare, and he is extremely sensitive to personal space, because you know, if you're a hare and you let something get close enough to get you, chances are you're dead. If he's feeling pressure from me, often I can relieve it by just leaning away from him, not even moving my feet. He seems more comfortable if the balance of my bodyweight is on my heels or centred rather than on the balls of my feet. He is that sensitive. He reads where I'm likely to go by the balance of my bodyweight. I think it is instinctive. It's a tricky balance between leaning forward to close the gap between us with my hand, which is less threatening than having my body closer, and getting my body to look relaxed and like it is not about to go anywhere. I usually have to squat with my weight low and in my hips rather than my legs.

Anyway, just a thought in addition to everything else.

[becks]

I've just skimmed through the posts, another thing you can try is to work with you sitting on a chair with your legs stretched infront of you. If your dog is taught to target something small, like a beer mat (or peg as was suggested before) you can start with it by your foot and slowly move the target closer to you.

[hopenfox]

Well I've been busy teaching Link to 'touch' and he's going great. He'll now touch his nose to my hand wherever I hold it, even jumping in the air to reach. He was quite hesitant at first to go through my legs to 'touch', but is improving every day and I'm aiming for leg weaving.

He's really enjoying the clicker training and gets really excited when he sees me get the clicker.

I've also been doing my best to only reward him when he's side on to me, which is still quite a challenge - he quickly flips round to face me nearly all the time. But he is slowly improving in this too.

Corvus, I've tried leaning away from him, and this does really help him to relax, but is quite awkward to hold! I can move him like a puppet by leaning to and fro!

Leema & becks, thanks for the tips and I'll be looking around for that book.

[Erny]

I can move him like a puppet by leaning to and fro!

Turn this natural inclination into doggy dancing .

Good work. Glad it is all going well for you.

[Leema]

Thanks for the update - glad things are going well.

I also realised that I use "Fox" when I meant "Link" in my last post. Oops. I'm sure you worked it out, though.

[kelpiechick]

I've been working through Karen Overall's 'Protocol for Relaxation' with one of mine - you can find it here.

I don't understand entirely why this works as it appears very simple, I first read the exercises and thought 'that's it?' but so far it sure seems to be working. The other day I took it on the road and did a set outside a cafe with motorbikes roaring and people everywhere and although I still observed some stress signs, he had no trouble focussing on me - something I have struggled with at times when something stresses him out and definitely not conducive with agility trialling. (I think I may have been in the ring at Bendigo with this particular kelpie in Excellent Agility, just before you went in with Fox, if I have the right person)

I printed off the rationale from the website and then reformatted the exercises onto a page for each day with a space for record keeping comments. Have a look at it and if you want a copy of what I did PM me your email addy and I will send it to you.

An interesting thing I have noticed from doing these exercises that fits with your experience - and I have never noticed it before with this dog - he is more focussed working the exercises when I stand in front of him than when I stand at the side, so I am now working on only rewarding at my side. Even when we tug, I now present the toy at my side and then pull him to the front.

I hope to meet Link at an agility trial at some stage.

[hopenfox]

Thanks for your encouragement .

Don't worry Leema, I knew you meant Link!

Kelpiechick, that 'Protocol for Relaxation' sounds intriguing. I would love to see it put into action (on Youtube?) as I'm not certain I would be able to do it right. I would love a copy of what you did - I'll PM you my email.

And yes, that was me with Fox at the Bendigo trial. Where I forgot my spiked agility shoes and slipped and slid in the mud all day!

I'm on the verge of retiring Fox. He's nearly 9 and appears to be losing interest.

I'm really looking forward to training and trialling with just Link now, if only I can get past this pressure/focus thing. It's been quite exhausting training and trialling 2 dogs at once!