Answer From Another Thread.

[Steve]

Quote

Steve im a vicdog member,MBDA mmber,Frenchbulld dog club,Boston terrier club member.

And from what i read the MBDA is the only membership that could help me.

l WANT to keep my 10 dogs ...l want to be able to breed to improve whats in my yard

SO PLEASE what should we do...???????

lm willing to help in anyway possible as the shire[wellington]will be trying there dammedest to cut down the number of dogs VCA member can own.

These new regulations are made to make the piulic belive its to cut down Puppyfarms here,but it also includes US[VICDOG MEMBERS]

IM NOT HERE TO HELP THE PUPPYFAMERS JUST US...IS THIS POSSIBLE???

I think if I answer this it will help lots of people to understand why we have been warning people about banging a drum about more laws and more power to the RSPCA to enforce local laws.

So far in the state of Victoria many registered breeders thought they were safe form needing to have planning permits to breed dogs on their property as long as they kept their numbers under 10 fertile animals. Non registered breeders also felt that they could own and breed up to 5 fertile bitches without needing to bother with permits or licenses etc.

There are fair reasons for this belief which is perpetrated by Vic dogs who fall over themselves telling their members what a great job they do for them and how they were able to manage exemptions for them. And they were. Registrations are cheaper, and you don’t have to pay for a permit until you have 10 breeding animals or comply with all of the extra stuff which goes along with a Domestic and Feral Animal business license.

But the big deal and it’s the one I feel like I just bang my head against a wall with when I try to explain why we are against more laws being bought in is this. Any where not just in Victoria whether or not Canine councils have been able to get exemptions for their members or not this has nothing whatever to do with environment and planning laws which each and every person who ever breeds a dog in any place , in any state in Australia whether they are registered breeders or not has to comply with.

These laws treat everyone equally – there is no distinction between someone who has 10 chi’s or 10 great Danes. There is no distinction between someone who breeds as a hobby even if they never actually ever sell a puppy and someone who only breeds for commercial purposes.

In a recent press release Jo Helper said there were 70 breeders who have planning approval to be breeding facilities in the entire state. Given that registered breeders also need these planning approvals if they ever breed a litter or own more than 2 entire dogs at an educated guess I’d say that one hell of a lot of breeders who are breaking the law.

Now to date many have been able to be ignorant of this requirement and those who did know they needed these permits via environment and planning in their shire could be pretty relaxed because council didn’t come looking and didn’t know you even existed unless there was a complaint.

The new laws which are being pushed Australia wide which many registered breeders are backing as anti puppy farm and anti pet shop sales include legislation which will identify who you are , where you live , how many dogs you have and breed and whether or not you comply with these environmental laws. They will give the RSPCA the power to enforce these local environment laws because those breeders including registered breeders who keep their breeding dogs in their lounge rooms on satin pillows are the rogue breeders they are talking about when they tell of breeders who are breeding outside of environment and planning laws.

Breeders such as Banksia Park comply with these environment and planning laws ,they have had complaints so the council has already given the nod and ticked them off .RSPCA won’t be able to ping them or tell them to do anything they don’t already do as long as they comply with local and state laws pertaining to keeping and breeding animals.

When you see photos of 2 dogs in one pen on concrete floors miles away from the house that’s exactly what they have been forced to do to comply with these environmental planning laws and SO WILL EVERY PERSON WHO BREEDS A DOG as they should be now according to local laws.

So let’s go back a minute and apply this knowledge to the question regarding Wellington shire.

In Wellington shire Victoria the Planning scheme states that animal keeping is land used to

a) Breed or board domestic pets; or

b) Keep, breed or board racing dogs.

In Residential 1 Zone, Low Density Residential Zone or Township Zone a planning permit is not required for the keeping of 2 animals. (This does not include animal boarding). You may apply for a planning permit to keep more than 2 animals but no more than 5 animals.

In a Rural Zone the keeping of more than 5 animals requires a planning permit.

If you have more than 2 dogs in a residential area but less than 5 you need to apply for a permit to keep them there whether you are CC registered or not. If you either don’t already have this permit or you have more than 5 dogs in this zoned area you are breaking the law and your dogs are at risk.

If you live in a rural zone and you have more than 5 dogs you have to apply for a planning permit. This entails doing EXACTLY what any puppy farmer is required to do to get the approval including having a sign on your fence to let everyone know what you intend to do and therefore alerting animal lib to what you are up to.

You will need to fill out an application form, which is available at Shire Services Centres or you can download a from our website www.wellington.vic.gov.au. The checklist attached to the application explains the type of information to be provided.

As well as 3 copies of a site plan, you will need to submit a written description of the

proposal. This should include:

• maximum number of animals (existing and/or proposed increase)

• waste disposal methods

• traffic movements

• landscaping

• Any other information to assist Council in the assessment of the proposal.

The site plan should also show the distances between the animal keeping activities

(kennels, exercise yards etc) and adjoining houses and an assessment of effects of the proposal on the environment and other people.

Now I don’t want anyone to answer this question here because if the answer is no you shouldn’t say so out loud.

If you live in Wellington shire and you are a registered breeder do you currently comply with local environment and planning laws ?

Are you a person with more than 2 dogs living in suburbia and if so do you have the necessary approvals to keep your dogs? If you don’t have this permit then the reason you have been able to do that is because council haven’t policed these laws. So when you join animal lib and push for new harder laws just remember its you who is the rogue and the one who will be in the spotlight that you have been able to avoid for so long.

Go on humour me how many registered breeders do you reckon are complying with environment planning laws? How many do you think would still be able to do what they do now this time next year?

When they come to your door to police the laws – remember who asked for it.

In some areas [mainly Queensland] we have seen recent activity to make breeders think they have no worries by applying for a breeding permit. This then identifies who they are and where they are and according to dog registration etc what they are being told is true. Registered breeders feel all warm and snuggly because their CC has been able to get them reductions and exemptions on fees and wham in comes the environment and planning stuff and before they know it their lives have changed.

Your state CCs and liaison officers can’t do a bloody thing either.

Its no big deal though – right ? After all if we want to breed dogs then we should be doing what we need to do to comply with the laws and we have nothing to worry about right as long as we do the right thing.

Can the MDBA help you? Im speaking with some people now to find out exact eligibility criteria on whats needed on your property to apply and get approval and we will be able to help you get it all ready for applying and Im consulting with some people on another aspect of it but the short answer looks like being that if these laws come in and you are not holding a planning permit which is needed in your zone. No. No one can.

What are the chances of these laws coming in ? Extremely high as both Labour and Liberal have already said they will do so. In NSW its already a done deal and RSPCA can enforce these environment and planning laws and its why several breeders Im aware of have simply decided it’s too hard after having a visit and being told what they have to do to keep breeding their dogs and at least 2 rescue groups that Im aware of have had to shut shop after visits from the RSPCA.

One more small point please take note that so far no one has said they will introduce laws to stop the sales of animals in pets shops.

Stop running with animal lib, stop calling for new laws and stop thinking we are special. There are other ways to stop puppies being bred in poor conditions and if the calls for laws and more power to the RSPCA weren’t so strong we may be able to talk about them logically.

[mortonplace]

Thanks Steve and i will be checking in to get the next step that should be taken.

PETIONS,FACEBOOK AND WORD OF MOUTH???

What ever it takes im ready

[oakway]

Steve

Will you please give permission for me to copy the above that you have written to hand out to other persons.

[puggy_puggy]

I'm confused as to what Animal Lib has to do with anything.

Goes off to look at the draft of Oscar's Law and the draft of the RSPCA solution of puppy factories.

[toy dog]

Stop running with animal lib, stop calling for new laws and stop thinking we are special. There are other ways to stop puppies being bred in poor conditions and if the calls for laws and more power to the RSPCA weren’t so strong we may be able to talk about them logically.

supporting a cause to shut puppy farms down and stop sales in shops is not really in my opinion "running with animal libs" just because you are supporting a cause to shut down something and banning something doesn't mean you are also supporting RSPCA and what they want to bring in.

i know RSPCA are anti-reg breeders i see it on their site about us, slandering us no suprises there. thats why there are plenty on the face book saying to both parties, we don't need any more laws to go after Rogue breeders. how are they going to find rogue breeders and i got my answer on your post. they are only listening to RSPCA and what they want to do not listening to anyone else, i understand all that.

why can't they just ban big puppy farms with battery dogs close them down OR as a start ban sales in petshops thats all they need to do, not add on to existing laws make new ones, MAKE IT BLOODY COMPLICATED or whatever RSPCA want to do. thats what many are calling for, nope they've answered by saying we will introduce MORE LAWS tougher laws that the farms can manipulate their own way find the loopholes still be in business a they are doing now, breed up mixes flood the country with them. i also read somewhere the premier and opposition want to give more power to councils to shut these places down, i assume "places" mean puppy farms. but by what you are saying it means ALL BREEDERS giving them more power to regulate even the registered breeders and make it harder for them. i do get all that and i do agree thats what they are doing. thats why we have our state controlling bodies we pay them money to stick up for us and you are telling me they are not? why not, why are they sitting there why isn't the members holding them accountable? making them work for their money they get off us.

RSPCA are going after backyard breeders but as asal says, we are all backyard breeders, define backyard breeders. and this is their answer get us all with new laws.

i don't agree with any of that especially calling for RSPCA to have more power!!!

so what happens to a breeder thats had a permit in that shire for a long time?? they have to re-apply is that what you are telling me for environmental planning? under these new laws the premier and the oppposition said they want to bring in. they are saying identical stuff copying each other !!!

but new laws tighten up old ones, is not going to get to the root of the problem that everyone is complaining about, puppy farms, shelters filling up, petshop sales.

so what about this that the RSPCA is proposing? you aren't required to be registered as an animal business so does that mean that you are not required to apply for planning and environmental permits? im just asking this question. is there anything else out there that is being proposed that voids this one being proposed?

person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice.

my final question, is MDBA liaising with government have they a voice? i got told DOGSVIC has a voice but so far i don't know what their answer is to any of this. i assume that they are also liaising with the govt and making sure they exempt DOGSVIC members like above statement. if the answer is, yes we have a voice MDBA are liaising with govt....then......where do i sign up, i am in. and yes, i am like mortonplace i will want to be included on anything that requires us all to work together to make sure we are all protected from this.

agree 100%

Edited October 15, 2010 by toy dog

[Steve]

Steve

Will you please give permission for me to copy the above that you have written to hand out to other persons.

Yep.

[Steve]

Stop running with animal lib, stop calling for new laws and stop thinking we are special. There are other ways to stop puppies being bred in poor conditions and if the calls for laws and more power to the RSPCA weren’t so strong we may be able to talk about them logically.

supporting a cause to shut puppy farms down and stop sales in shops is not really in my opinion "running with animal libs" just because you are supporting a cause to shut down something and banning something doesn't mean you are also supporting RSPCA and what they want to bring in.

i know RSPCA are anti-reg breeders i see it on their site about us, slandering us no suprises there. thats why there are plenty on the face book saying to both parties, we don't need any more laws to go after Rogue breeders. how are they going to find rogue breeders and i got my answer on your post. they are only listening to RSPCA and what they want to do not listening to anyone else, i understand all that.

why can't they just ban big puppy farms with battery dogs close them down OR as a start ban sales in petshops thats all they need to do, not add on to existing laws make new ones, MAKE IT BLOODY COMPLICATED or whatever RSPCA want to do. thats what many are calling for, nope they've answered by saying we will introduce MORE LAWS tougher laws that the farms can manipulate their own way find the loopholes still be in business a they are doing now, breed up mixes flood the country with them. i also read somewhere the premier and opposition want to give more power to councils to shut these places down, i assume "places" mean puppy farms. but by what you are saying it means ALL BREEDERS giving them more power to regulate even the registered breeders and make it harder for them. i do get all that and i do agree thats what they are doing. thats why we have our state controlling bodies we pay them money to stick up for us and you are telling me they are not? why not, why are they sitting there why isn't the members holding them accountable? making them work for their money they get off us.

RSPCA are going after backyard breeders but as asal says, we are all backyard breeders, define backyard breeders. and this is their answer get us all with new laws.

i don't agree with any of that especially calling for RSPCA to have more power!!!

so what happens to a breeder thats had a permit in that shire for a long time?? they have to re-apply is that what you are telling me for environmental planning? under these new laws the premier and the oppposition said they want to bring in. they are saying identical stuff copying each other !!!

but new laws tighten up old ones, is not going to get to the root of the problem that everyone is complaining about, puppy farms, shelters filling up, petshop sales.

so what about this that the RSPCA is proposing? you aren't required to be registered as an animal business so does that mean that you are not required to apply for planning and environmental permits? im just asking this question. is there anything else out there that is being proposed that voids this one being proposed?

person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice.

my final question, is MDBA liaising with government have they a voice? i got told DOGSVIC has a voice but so far i don't know what their answer is to any of this. i assume that they are also liaising with the govt and making sure they exempt DOGSVIC members like above statement. if the answer is, yes we have a voice MDBA are liaising with govt....then......where do i sign up, i am in. and yes, i am like mortonplace i will want to be included on anything that requires us all to work together to make sure we are all protected from this.

agree 100%

.

This bit quote

- person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice.

Means nothing when you start to look at environment and planning laws. This means you dont have to apply for a permit as a registered breeding establishment as a registered breeder until you have more than 10 dogs but the fact that you dont have to be a registered breeding establishment isn't the same as having to have a permit where you live to breed dogs.

Do you live in a residential area and own more than 2 dogs which you breed? or Do you live in a rural area and own more than 5 dogs which you breed ? If so do Do you have a current permit from your local shire to breed dogs on your property?

Here is a real life actual email I received from someone in a farm zone who owned 5 fertile bitches.

Council says over five breeding bitches and I must register with them as a dog breeding business and hence come under the Victorian code of practise, get audited by council etc.

Now, if I am an AnKC breeder, my council says I can own up to 10 breeding bitches ( dogs don't need to be registered at all - just the breeder) and council don't care if I am in the farming zone. That is, i dont need to be a reg bus with council and the code of practice does not apply. HOWEvER , the Department of Planning does care. So here state and council differ. Iwhile local govt says I am fine to be have 10 bitches on a farm as an ANKC person, State govt says I need a planning permit for more than five breeding bitches (!). So I am back to square one, ANKC or not.

To get a planning permit I pay $500 to council, show plans, design, management etc. I then have to put a public notice at the front of my property for one month during which time the public can object.

When they object (as the loony neighbour here did, slapping my family home on the front page of local rag and calling us puppy farmers - I am still suffering from major depression as a result of their terrorism over a 2 yr period) you must then go through VCAT. It took 8 months before our case was heard cos we r country.

It then took 3 months to get the ruling. Which found in our favour.

[Steve]

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

[Steve]

We have a breeder now who applied for the new breeders permits in Queensland and was told according to companion animal laws she could have as many as she wanted on 160 acres as long as she paid the rego fees which she gets a discount on because she is a registered breeder and Dogs Q were able to get them discounts. Sounded good. Until she gets the next bit.

She has to have kennels and a whole pile of other stuff to breed her 6 dogs which she has bred for the last 10 years out the back of the boonies. Not because of the dog laws and thats where we have been looking and where the CCs can work for exemptions but in environment and planning. She has to pay 1500 to apply for the DA.

thats not new - its always been the case but councils have never really done much because they only knew you were there and what you were doing if there was a complaint.

[toy dog]

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA?

im sorry but to me thats not clear

and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!!

[toy dog]

Do you live in a residential area and own more than 2 dogs which you breed? or Do you live in a rural area and own more than 5 dogs which you breed ? If so do Do you have a current permit from your local shire to breed dogs on your property?

steve, i will msg you privately as i feel this is personal, i need to talk to you to give you an insight into my family's story if you don't mind. i am going to copy your post and send to my parents they really need to see this.

thank you

[Steve]

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA?

im sorry but to me thats not clear

and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!!

The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not.

All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority.

We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there?

[Steve]

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA?

im sorry but to me thats not clear

and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!!

The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not.

All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority.

We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there?

To be more clear Vicdogs has no say over environment and planning and nor do we. Vicdogs have already said they support new laws. We do not.

[oakway]

People get your head around it

What is happening in this country is caused by the Animal Liberation Movement.

They have infiltrated all organizations in one way or another.

You are being used by them in many forms and disguises to do their bidding unwittingly.

Be careful with what you put your trust in.

[toy dog]

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA?

im sorry but to me thats not clear

and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!!

The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not.

All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority.

We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there?

To be more clear Vicdogs has no say over environment and planning and nor do we. Vicdogs have already said they support new laws. We do not.

i would really like to get DOGSVIC clear standing on all of this. i will attempt to email them and ask the question i am interested to know their stance and what their answer will be. i am going to raise a few points.

i just want to understand all this completely. thats all.

it would be good if someone could clarify from DOGSVIC on here though. so far i still hear crickets chirping.

[toy dog]

People get your head around it

What is happening in this country is caused by the Animal Liberation Movement.

They have infiltrated all organizations in one way or another.

You are being used by them in many forms and disguises to do their bidding unwittingly.

Be careful with what you put your trust in.

from reading on facebook, they (oscarslaw ppl) are going to courtcases and objecting based on environment and planning laws, they can't say anything under animal welfare laws they are dealing with the same laws we will be dealing with. this is now thats going on.

who made the laws? this is VCAT hearings im referring to.

Edited October 15, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

I'm confused as to what Animal Lib has to do with anything.

Goes off to look at the draft of Oscar's Law and the draft of the RSPCA solution of puppy factories.

when you find the connection let me know, im going around in circles here.

[Steve]

Still - its not a situation where you need to get dogsvic standing on this because its already the law. It has been the law for ever and its just never been policed much. Regsitered breders thought environment and planning laws didn't affect them. They do.

Stand back from this and look at what is being said. Animal lib has been calling for councils to do their job and police current laws. Oscars law is calling for tougher laws .Pollies on both sides have said we will make tougher laws. Tougher laws even if they are nly about who will police current laws will impact on you more than they will commercial puppy farmers because they already have their permits and comply with the laws. Sure there are some who breed out the back of the boonies in rotten conditions but they are already breaking the current laws - they can easily shut them down - just as they can you if they wanted to.

[Steve]

People get your head around it

What is happening in this country is caused by the Animal Liberation Movement.

They have infiltrated all organizations in one way or another.

You are being used by them in many forms and disguises to do their bidding unwittingly.

Be careful with what you put your trust in.

from reading on facebook, they (oscarslaw ppl) are going to courtcases and objecting based on environment and planning laws, they can't say anything under animal welfare laws they are dealing with the same laws we will be dealing with. this is now thats going on.

who made the laws? this is VCAT hearings im referring to.

Exactly and if you think making people who are doing the right thing and applying for DA with environment and planning having to go through this is going to stop puppy farmers - Im thinking exactly the opposite.

If you were planning on doing it all right and applying for a permit which then gave you all this grief would you want to comply with the law?

One minute we want them all out in the open and doing it by the book and then when they do we hunt them - yet they are the ones doing it all according to local laws and we are the ones breaking the laws by not applying.

Doesnt make much sense to me. But all this time we have been thinking is companion animals laws it was environment and planning. God help us if they make them any harder.

[Steve]

I'm confused as to what Animal Lib has to do with anything.

Goes off to look at the draft of Oscar's Law and the draft of the RSPCA solution of puppy factories.

when you find the connection let me know, im going around in circles here.

O.K, Go here - animal liberation website. Thats a start.

http://www.alv.org.au/issues/puppyfactories.php

21 September 2010

7PM Project on Channel 10 ran a great story tonight about puppy factories featuring an interview with Debra Tranter (oscarslaw.org) and showing footage from ALV's recent investigation at a Victorian puppy factory.