Getting Serious And Charging Appropriately

[rocco]

I know DOL has taught us all a great love for Photography. I see alot of us all breaking off and finding our feet, starting websites, trying to actually make a go of photography.

One thing that concerns me is "pricing" and what we/you value your work at. Pricing ourselves too low can cheapen the industry. There are photographers out there that this is their livelihood, incredible artists that have perfected their game and should be paid what they are worth.

If we as photographers dont price ourselves we could cause a industry to turn belly up. If you feel you cant or shouldn't be charging the right fee

then think seriously about your product you are offering and should you be offering it? You have to stand behind your work, know its good and worth the $$$.

There is more to photography then just taking a great photo. Owning a digital camera doesn't make you a photographer.

Please dont think.... Rocco's getting petty. Its not at all. I am in no way class myself up there with the skilled photographers and the majority of

my photography income does not come from "clients", its generated in other ways. But having spent time with some of the best out there, watching them all getting frustrated with the industry, I think it all helps if we start off getting it right.

[Ashanali]

I have a thing that I posted to a flickr group about this a while back... will see if I can find it. It's very relevant.

[Guest Tess32]

For most people there isn't really a way to find out how much is the going rate is for photography at dog shows. Plus most of the time there are 10 other people with DSLRs all trying to sell the same shot.

Add to THAT the fact that many exhibitors (at least in my experience) don't want to pay much because they feel it's THEIR dog and on some level, their photo.

What is a reasonable rate? I don't know, I used to charge $10 for just a standard digital shot and more for printed shots (which hardly anybody wanted anyway).

[huga]

Timely thread, Rocco.

I have no idea about dog show photography, so I won't comment on that. But I do know the pricing stuff is creating waves in the industry - with the accessibility of DSLRs and photoshop (selective colouring anyone?), it's easier than ever to become a 'photographer' (which I love, because I am one of those newcomers!). For now, I am much too inexperienced to start a business and to be honest, entirely hesistant to swim with the sharks. But if I ever do, I can guarantee that I will be pricing so that I actually make money from my business.

[Ashanali]

I can't find it.

Essentially, nobody can tell people what to charge (the ACCC doesn't like that ) However there are ways to figure out what you're worth.

If you're in business OR you're building a business, you need to RUN YOUR BUSINESS. What I mean by this is, even if you're portfolio building, you still need to charge a decent amount or else you will struggle.

So let's look at it this way (this is the very short version)

What should you charge for an 8x10 inch print? Write down the number.

Now you are going to work out how much that 8x10 inch print costs you to produce.

Cost of actual print

Fuel to get to and from the shoot

Fuel to get to and from the lab OR postage

Phone calls

Insurance (if you have a business, you NEED insurance - this is not something you should avoid as consequences for not having it can be very serious.)

Website hosting

Internet hosting

electricity

Camera gear

Computer

Programs/upgrades

bookkeeping

accounting

advertising

savings

superannuation

Tax

PAY FOR YOUR TIME AND SKILL

Now for some of these, there will be a big ZERO - it depends on what stage of business you are at. However if you're intending on working as a professional, these are all things you need to consider when forming your pricing.

You also need to work backwards. Think to yourself, "how much income do I want to make per year from photography?"

Let's say $100,000 after costs have been taken out.

Most people think to themselves, "That's $2000 a week. Easy peasy"

Incorrect. To earn $2000 a week, you need to bring in approximately $4000 a week (and that's conservative)

So how do you generate these $4000 worth of sales? How many 8x10 images do you need to sell to make this amount?

Look at it another way, how often do you see; "$200 for your photos on a disc" - sounds awesome right? Wrong.

You still have to do the legwork and the editing and sure, putting the images on a disc is easy enough, but you still need to shoot 15-20 sessions a week to make $100,000 a year. How do you get the time to have a life if you're shooting 15-20 sessions a week and editing and meeting clients and so on.

As I said, there is no right or wrong, but there are soooooooooooooo many factors to consider when thinking about your pricing. Some of them are obvious, and some of them are not so obvious but they are all VERY REAL costs you need to consider. You also need to remember that you have to have a work/life balance. People go crazy working 16 hour days and it's easy enough to back yourself in to that corner.

And I'm not saying, "don't shoot for free". I still do free shoots ocassionally when I want something FOR ME (I did three shoots last week that were personal work). However there is shooting for free and there is being a sucker that is getting walked over. If you're portfolio building the best thing to do is work out what you want your pricelist to be, put those prices out into the big wide world THEN put on there, "50% discount for all orders finalised before June 2011" or something like that. That way people know ahead of time that YOU value your work and they will treat you so much differently and more respectfully because of it.

This is something I'm passionate about. I'll be heading out to schools soon to talk about this very subject (to students thinking about photography as a career). If people want to find out more or have any questions, feel free to email me.

[Linda K]

could not agree more - shoot and burners unfortunately have done a lot of damage

There is such a lot more to running the business than just snapping a few shots - also the endless upgrades you need to buy (camera gear, new lens, new bodies), and also having stock on hand to show different samples, and changing those around too, not to mention things like templates for those. Knowing exactly what your cost of goods is, and then pricing yourself accordingly will ensure then that you are not one of the 90% of businesses that fail within 5 years, Don't just price it out based on what your competitors are charging and copycat them - they may not have the same costs as you (for instance, they might have a studio, for which they are paying rental costs, and have setups like lights, backdrops etc), whereas your own model may be based on natural light outdoors (therefore no lights, no props), or they might not even have worked out their COG (and therefore what they need to charge to make a profit, and you are just using a bad business model to copy.

One don't always have to go into business just because friends say you take nice photos - so much of the business is about stuff other than the photo taking, and there is always a possibility that for some, their family is just saying that to be nice, or does not have any idea what makes the difference between a snapshot and otherwise (just have a look for instance at any mummy forum and have a look at some of the comments on photos that look bad even by Pixie Portrait standards, and how many wow comments they get - family and friends are not always the best judges)

Food for thought

[Ashanali]

There is such a lot more to running the business than just snapping a few shots -

It's incredible. The first high school I went to I was talking to about 40 year 11 and 12 students who were interested in being photographers. The first thing I said was, "Who in this room thinks that photography is glamorous and all about photos?" About 90% of the class put their hands up. I then said that out of a working week, probably 1-2 days would be shooting and the rest of the time was bookwork, advertising, SEO, customer liasing, editing, proofing, designing and so on and so on (I have it in a powerpoint presentation).

After going through the routine of a working photographer, I then pointed out that for every successful studio that makes it past 5 years, there are probably around 200 photographers that fail because of poor business practices - nothing to do with photographic skill.

At the end of the talk (I do go over all the positive stuff also), I asked the same question as at the start, "so now, who in this room thinks photography is glamorous and all about photos?" Not a single hand went up.

Then I asked, "so who still thinks being a photographer is for them?" - there were about 4 or 5 people. To me, what happened during that talk is what happens in the industry. People get swept up by a love of photography not realising how hard the work actually is, then they either sink or swim - the swimmers are a very small number, usually the people who have a clear idea before they start of what they are getting into and just how hard they need to work OR they are adaptable and very quickly realise they need to catch up or lose the race. Chances are those 4 or 5 students would be okay if they decide to head into the industry because they have some sort of idea of what they are getting themselves in to and they realise that it isn't just about snapping a few photos.

[Linda K]

exactly

[rubiton]

Exactly - 'they' (the newcomers that so of us call flybynighters) get a DSLR and think that if they can gets prints at Kmart or whereever for $5 or less for an 8x12 then its great if they charge $8. Wonderful they massively undercut the pros and have lots of interest from their friends and friends of friends. Then after a while they realise that its not just take a shot stick em up on the web and wait for people to hand over the money its the using all your time going places to takethe photos, getting the info to identify who is in them, printing the right photo, storing the files somewhere (you can only put so much til the computer gets full), posting out the photos in a timely manner and of course replacing the odd ones that get lost or damaged. Fun to start with but gets very tedious after a while.

And not to mention standing out with your gear on stinking hot 40 plus degree days or standin gout in the rain and wind and then finding for some reason that particular day the sales just arent all that good for some reason (sometimes you'll get a huge amount of sales and then a year later hardly an order). NOt to mention the costs for replacing and fixing gear and the running around to arrange that. etc etc.

And how does the constant stream affect the pros? Well the flybynighters popping up make a few sales - you look expensive so your sales are down regardless on how good a photo looks and then you think is it really worth going to those particular events to cover then for wherever you provide your work to.

Edited October 13, 2010 by rubiton

[~*Shell*~]

It's incredible. The first high school I went to I was talking to about 40 year 11 and 12 students who were interested in being photographers. The first thing I said was, "Who in this room thinks that photography is glamorous and all about photos?" About 90% of the class put their hands up. I then said that out of a working week, probably 1-2 days would be shooting and the rest of the time was bookwork, advertising, SEO, customer liasing, editing, proofing, designing and so on and so on (I have it in a powerpoint presentation).

This sounds exactly like people trying to get into my industry (for those that don't know, I work in TV). My intern recently had a review where she asked "when does the fun stuff happen? I haven't been on a shoot yet" - she's final year at uni doing a media degree and yet she thinks that what we do as producers is go on shoots, which are entirely fun. She still doesn't realise that going on shoots in the vast minority of what we do. Working in TV is definitely not glamorous but so many people think it is. I find photography is the same. The amount of time I spend shooting is totally dwarfed by the amount of time i spend organising and planning!

The thing that really gets me though is the amount of people who now look at my photography equipment and think I'm anywhere near professional level. I think i would probably be able to count the number of photos I have taken that I would consider to be professional-standard on one hand. :D Don't get me wrong, I have some nice equipment (now) but my list of things I want to buy is huge compared to the list of things I have! :D Seriously lacking in the skills department too but unfortunately, I can't buy that!

[MonElite]

Isnt it an industry like any other service industry?

If you want a massage you can get one for $40 an hour and you can get one for $400 an hour.

What gives the right of the $400 an hour person to tell the other that they are too cheap?

Business is business, some like to be exclusive, expensive and have little work some are cheap and flood the market with what they do.

Different service providers appeal to different target markets.

[Ashanali]

Isnt it an industry like any other service industry?

If you want a massage you can get one for $40 an hour and you can get one for $400 an hour.

What gives the right of the $400 an hour person to tell the other that they are too cheap?

Business is business, some like to be exclusive, expensive and have little work some are cheap and flood the market with what they do.

Different service providers appeal to different target markets.

If you notice my posts, I haven't said that being cheap is wrong, I have said that there are ways to work out what you're worth and how to work it out.

There will always be a call for cheaper services and that's fine, however the people who are cheaper are generally cheaper because they are inexperienced (everyone starts somewhere), or cutting necessary corners in their business (not good) or because they are high volume (which unless you're part of a larger force such as 'Pixifoto' or 'Starshots', this is a killer).

Generally the people who start out cheap and stick with a plan to remain cheap, WILL lose money and WILL go out of business. Been there, done that. I have learnt a huge amount from the experience and it's why I'm so keen to share.

[MonElite]

If you notice my posts, I haven't said that being cheap is wrong,

my post was a reply to the original post

Specifically this bit

Pricing ourselves too low can cheapen the industry.

And this

If we as photographers dont price ourselves we could cause a industry to turn belly up. If you feel you cant or shouldn't be charging the right fee then think seriously about your product you are offering and should you be offering it? You have to stand behind your work, know its good and worth the $$$.

In the industry where Ive got my money invested there are tip top products made in Germany that cost a lot of money. There also are asian knock offs that cost a third, even look the same.

Should I tell the shop up the road taht they cant sell the asian knock off because Im selling the good German stuff? I ahve no right to do that. I can provide better service, I can lower my prices or I can pack my bags and go elswhere.

This is how competition works in ANY industry. There were some regulated ones but most go deregulated resulting in end user benefiting.

Telecommunication is one prime example.

When I came to Australia in 1989 I paid $2.10 per minute for a phone call to Poland.

Now I might be paying $0.21 if that.

Competition, thats all. I guarantee you Telstra doesnt like it, just like I dont like the shop down the road selling cheap filters.

Edited October 13, 2010 by MonElite

[Linda K]

I believe that the point they are making is that the shoot and burners are damaging the industry to the point that unfortunately Joe Public thinks that they are now being screwed by someone charging $60 for something someone else is charging $8 for, when the $60 person has actually worked out their costs and is charging appropriate, the $8 charger is probably doing this for a bit of fun on the side, is not relying on this to make a living, and in a year or 2 will probably have tired of it and moved on (and in the meantime is in no way covering their costs in fact they are probably bleeding money, but as this is only a hobby, they probably don't realise that. In the meantime, the "overpriced" photographer who has seen their business radically overrun by the shoot and burn brigade has also quit, as there is no way they can compete with that sort of undercutting. I have seen it myself, with people thinking that if they ask for a CD of their images, instead of getting prints, that there is no cost to me & so I should heavily discount it - I have still had to do the same work to do a session and process all the images, and my running costs are no different, and as has been well illustrated above, the actual printing costs is only a minimal part of the process, so they are disappointed if I say no, as they think if a shoot and burner can do it for $200, I am ripping them off charging several 1000.

Photography is NOT a service industry, it is far more than that - in just taking the photo, it is more than just pressing a button, there is learning how to read light in any situations and make it work, how to compose an image, learning all your lenses backwards so you know which lens to choose to achieve what shot, knowing what aperture, shutter speed etc to use, and that is just the first bit, the second and sometimes harder one, is learning how to process the images correctly in the digital darkroom (otherwise known as Photoshop, Lightroom etc, and not screwing up the hard work by going overboard here. All of that is an art form. We are not just selling something on a mere piece of paper - there is an art to getting it there. Not to mention all the other aspects as has been touched on - hand holding before the session and providing guidance, during the session, and afterwards, right up to the point of delivery signoff. Sadly the shoot and burners are damaging in 2 points - by undercharging by ridiculous amounts, and in some cases selling work long before they are ready - you should be able to be just as proud of an image you might have in someones home that you took 5 years ago as you would be today, and not cringe at the thought of what you might have charged for, and what someone might have. If someone is not at that point, they should not be selling anything yet.

Think of so many industries here where the cheap overseas pricing has so damaged the Australian market, that you no longer see the Australian products around anymore.

We are not being over the top about telling people what to do or not do, it is more about ensuring that people don't rip themselves off too and in doing so damage the business - think about how many magazines for instance now offer amateur photographers the chance to send in an image for the cover, and pay (if they do), minimal to the person lucky enough to have their image on the cover, when previously they would have paid 1000's to someone for commercial use of an image for that - these people are being exploited by having unfair compensation to them for commercial use of an image, and they do not even realise it.

[Ashanali]

If you notice my posts, I haven't said that being cheap is wrong,

my post was a reply to the original post

Specifically this bit

Pricing ourselves too low can cheapen the industry.

And this

If we as photographers dont price ourselves we could cause a industry to turn belly up. If you feel you cant or shouldn't be charging the right fee then think seriously about your product you are offering and should you be offering it? You have to stand behind your work, know its good and worth the $$$.

In the industry where Ive got my money invested there are tip top products made in Germany that cost a lot of money. There also are asian knock offs that cost a third, even look the same.

Should I tell the shop up the road taht they cant sell the asian knock off because Im selling the good German stuff? I ahve no right to do that. I can provide better service, I can lower my prices or I can pack my bags and go elswhere.

This is how competition works in ANY industry. There were some regulated ones but most go deregulated resulting in end user benefiting.

Telecommunication is one prime example.

When I came to Australia in 1989 I paid $2.10 per minute for a phone call to Poland.

Now I might be paying $0.21 if that.

Competition, thats all. I guarantee you Telstra doesnt like it, just like I dont like the shop down the road selling cheap filters.

Very true Mon, yet Rocco still has a vaild point. It really does cheapen the industry when there are people around with good quality work charging bargain basement prices. Let the people with poor quality work charge low, let those with better quality of work charge more. I get the feeling that is where Rocco was heading with this post; not saying that everyone should be putting up their prices and be exclusive (because frankly, there are some people in the industry who shouldn't even be charging.)

[Guest Tess32]

I think it's hard because every type of photography is reacted to so differently by the general public and by photographers themselves.

And realistically, some prints are just harder to sell. Lots of people like my animal photography, but not everyone wants to decorate their house with shots of Lions, if you know what I mean. I don't even do it myself, heh.

The only thing that worries me is how many people are charging for portrait sessions and yet they aren't reliable yet. I had that same problem. They have great shots, but can't *guarantee* them.

Event photography is a whole other ball game, and dog shows in particular. I really can't be bothered doing them anymore because while I had a few good experiences, some clubs don't assist you at all. I couldn't even get my name in the catalogue at one of them, and they wouldn't even let me in the ring to take photos even though there was a video man who was welcome to. And yet they want awesome shots for hardly any money?

[Ashanali]

And yet they want awesome shots for hardly any money?

and that's the unfortunate mentality nowadays because if you won't do it, you can be guaranteed there is someone who will.

I read a really interesting blog post from a highly regarded photographer about this subject. Will need to try and find it.

[Guest Tess32]

And yet they want awesome shots for hardly any money?

and that's the unfortunate mentality nowadays because if you won't do it, you can be guaranteed there is someone who will.

I read a really interesting blog post from a highly regarded photographer about this subject. Will need to try and find it.

Yep, especially for winner shots, because there is usually just an exhibitor who will do it for free.

I think they get in a pickle though when they do want movement shots as they are much harder to get (as in good ones, heh).

You also only have to look at the threads/comments that have been on here too, with some exhibitors saying we should check with every single exhibitor before uploading any photos. The time involved with that would be huge, and yet still they want their photos for under $10 and within the next day!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

this happens in every industry, part and parcel of running a business.

prices are set by the market and we can only charge what the market will bear.

price fixing is a big no no so businesses need to be very careful about this. however, it is only really a problem if there are a small number of suppliers who price fix, ie cardboard box manufacturers.

i dont see how photography is any different from other businesses. i have owned and run my own business profitably for 15 years and i work in a very competative market space

Edited October 14, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Guest Tess32]

this happens in every industry, part and parcel of running a business.

prices are set by the market and we can only charge what the market will bear.

price fixing is a big no no so businesses need to be very careful about this. however, it is only really a problem if there are a small number of suppliers who price fix, ie cardboard box manufacturers.

i dont see how photography is any different from other businesses. i have owned and run my own business profitably for 15 years and i work in a very competative market space

Not all, but most businesses are specialist. Not everyone can pick up a XYZ and suddenly start charging within that industry.

Photography is one of the few businesses where you literally only need a minor amount of money to buy the equipment and you could start charging.

Most other businesses/industries require a bigger amount of initial investment or specialist skills.