Training And Deprivation

[Cosmolo]

I have been having some interesting conversations about training dogs and using deprivation and would love to know what others do and where you think the line is drawn.

So, with a training aim in mind, do you deprive the dog of any of the following- and at what point and for what duration would you use them?

Food in terms of meals

Food in terms of treats

Activity (eg, utilising a crate or pen before work)

Restriction/ removal of toys

Restricting contact with people

Do you use these thing every day? Just before work or a big event like a trial? Where do you personally draw the line in terms of the level of and duration of deprivation?

And just in case anyone misinterprets, i do NOT mean the word deprivation to have any kind of negative connotation.

[JulesP]

I don't feed my dogs breakfast on training/trial days and I limit their play with strange dogs.

My own dogs all hang out together. I was told I should keep them apart but I don't find that the interaction with each other hinders their training. When it is training time I have 4 border collies all trying to get out of the gate to be the first to train. I also don't crate/pen them as I would rather they spent the day running around having fun. I like them to be pets first and foremost.

[huski]

I don't feed Daisy before training and if we are going to have a big night/day of training I will either feed her a very small breakfast (i.e. one chicken neck) or will fast her for 24 hours. I also don't exercise her before training or do any activity with her before training. This isn't just to make her more eager for the food but our training can be quite high energy and it's better to work her on an empty stomach.

I'll also feed her a meal through training but that's not depriving her IMO.

If I trained in prey drive I wouldn't give the dog access to toys unless we were training.

I do think fasting is healthy for dogs but obviously I would draw the line if the dog was actually being starved.

ETA: Daisy is a hard dog to keep weight off and anyone who has met her can see she's certainly not on the light side

Edited April 16, 2010 by huski

[Cosmolo]

Huski- would you not give access to the drive toy or to any toy?

ETA I think general fasting is good for dogs too but general fasting is differentto doing it as part of a training program- not saying there is anything wrong with the latter, just that its to achieve a different purpose.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Cosmolo

[huski]

Huski- would you not give access to the drive toy or to any toy?

LOL snap we must have posted at the same time!

I just edited my post to clarify I meant any toy.

[dark angel]

We dont treat either of our dogs differently when training.They both only get fed at nights normally and thats it.Sometimes depending if im training a class or whatever the dogs may be tied for an hour or so in that time they interact with other dogs and people.

[huski]

ETA I think general fasting is good for dogs too but general fasting is differentto doing it as part of a training program- not saying there is anything wrong with the latter, just that its to achieve a different purpose.

What do you define as deprivation in this instance, though, Cos?

My dogs are fed their main meals in the morning, and we usually train most at night time.

If we are going to do be doing a lot of training (i.e. it's one of the two nights a week I go to club training) I will feed Daisy a very small meal for breakfast.

But then I feed her an entire meal through training that night - is it really depriving her if she's fed a full meal on the same day anyway?

Or, what if you feed your dog's entire daily meal through training sessions on the same day? Is that still classed as deprivation if the dog is getting the same amount of food anyway?

Edited April 16, 2010 by huski

[Henrietta]

My dogs still get fed, but sometimes I'll use the food that is their meal for training. Or alternatively if we have had a 'busy' session, I may cut back on what they have for their next meal, unless they have been really active. I think that is different though?

I do control all toy resources though, as in I don't have them littered around the yard/house, but we have a lot of playtime. This is all the time, not just when training.

Edit - having just reread the context of the thread, I don't think I've been very helpful.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Emm

[Staranais]

My girl only gets access to her drive toys at training time. But she has plenty of other toys & things to occupy herself with in the yard when I'm not there.

If I didn't give her those, she'd make her own (my washing line, dismantling the firewood pile, digging holes, etc)! Unless I crated her I guess, but then I'd be worried she'd bark all day or do something nasty like self mutilate.

Anyway, if a dog is a good working dog, then IMO I personally feel you don't need to deprive them of toys at all times - that seems like a gimmick to me to build drive in a borderline too low drive working dog. For a high drive dog, I'd worry that locking them up with no toys would do them more harm than good, psychologically.

As for human attention, she gets lots of access to lots of people for petting and cuddles, but they don't play with her, and few are permitted to feed her.

She doesn't get free play time with other dogs all that often, and when she does, they're always reasonably boring dogs.

I don't deprive her of food before training, but I do feed her a smaller meal for breakfast & a bigger one at night, so she's hopefully a little hungry when I go to train her in the afternoon.

[Cosmolo]

Fair point Huski- i guess to define it, it needs to be deviating from what you would do in the absence of training the dog.

So lets say for instance i have a dog who gets fed 2 cups of food per day in 2 meals. I don't think its deprivation if the dog gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in training at the end of the day. So if there is normally 12 hours between meals and we go 24 between a meal to increase the dogs drive for training, thats deprivation. If there is normally 24 hours between meals and we go 36 or 48, i think thats deprivation.

I'm with you with regards to the toys Staranais- i don't find it makes any difference for my 3 moderate- high drive dogs.

[huski]

Fair point Huski- i guess to define it, it needs to be deviating from what you would do in the absence of training the dog.

So lets say for instance i have a dog who gets fed 2 cups of food per day in 2 meals. I don't think its deprivation if the dog gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in training at the end of the day. So if there is normally 12 hours between meals and we go 24 between a meal to increase the dogs drive for training, thats deprivation. If there is normally 24 hours between meals and we go 36 or 48, i think thats deprivation.

Thanks for the clarification, Cos.

Re toys, I've never owned a really highly prey driven dog (Micha is quite prey driven but certainly has nothing on a working line Mal etc!) and my dogs don't really bother with toys much during the day, certainly no more than the time I could spend training them. Perhaps depriving the dog of any toys is more appropriate when you are trying to build drive in a lower drive dog.

[skip]

My dogs are fed only during training in terms of anything beside dry food.

I don't train my dogs before a trial like I never trained my horses before I competed as I find the day before a comp is not the best time I train. So the day before I go for a walk instead - if they don't know it the day before too late to change now.

I would give my dogs dry food the day before a trial. And as they would probably leave that I supose they would go empty. At a trial I need all the drive they can muster. No treats either of course the day before as I don't train.

I read recently ( on DOL I think )where a trainer crated her dogs the day before a trial to help with drive on the day. She was saying her hubby was home on Fridays so he could toilet the dog. A BC I think. I supose this is more what you are talking about.

At the time I thought I can see why and how it would work. But due to a few niggley thoughts, this is more then what I would do. Althou I won't say she is wrong, depends how serious you are and what you want to get out of competing. But a day without yummy food and days without treats wouldn't worry me.

This reminds me of working dogs I had to leave alone as they don't get affection unless it is a good word for working.

And if it was toys I would do the same as food- take faves away for a bit before.

Edited April 16, 2010 by skip

[corvus]

It's a curly one IMO. I've been chatting to some friends about this very issue recently in light of some papers I read about the effect of social deprivation in particular on rats. Of course, the things they do to rats are pretty extreme most of the time.

Currently, I don't really deprive my dogs of anything before training or on a day-to-day basis. I don't find that I need to. I've done training sessions mere moments after feeding them dinner and it makes no difference that I can see. Erik certainly gets pretty active in training, but it's never even occurred to me that he shouldn't train after a meal because of that. He's frequently very active. They can play with whoever they like within reason, they have access to toys all the time, I don't crate or pen them. They get treats daily.

Oh, I do keep the special tug toys to myself unless we're training. I've always thought of it as restricted access, but maybe it can be considered deprivation.

I do deprive my hare of treats. He gets nothing he particularly likes unless he takes it from my hand. I have found this to be necessary with him. He doesn't have high motivation to do any training in the first place, so I've found I really have to use everything I've got to manipulate his interest. It's a pain right now I would quite comfortably restrict access to any reward that my animals want, but don't need if I felt that their motivation needed a serious boot.

[Kavik]

I don't keep toys in the yard in general (Zoe can be possessive). They only get access to toys in training. I run my dogs together and they play during the day.

I feed per usual the night before a trial. If training is in the evening, I feed when I get home from training. Mine only get treats for training anyway.

I crate at training and while at a trial if I am not working Kaos - not sure if that counts as restricting activity?

[4Kelpies]

My dogs generally have their usual lifestyle until the day of the trial - the same freedom, food, exercise, access to company etc. The only exception is my most experienced bitch who can get lazy. She doesn't work sheep for 5-7 days before a trial to get her a bit keener. but the younger ones do their normal work. I have even got up early on the day of a trial and given my youngest bitch some extra work on sheep in an effort to try to take the edge off her and tire her out a bit. Now that she's more mature I can settle for a final workout the day before. I've never isolated dogs from me or each other before competition. When I've been camping at a venue the night before a trial, I've had the dogs sleep in the tent with me (great bed warmers) and it has never affected their keenness to work. With younger, less experienced dogs, just being at a trial tends to rev them up and make them harder to control. I've found that it's hard enough for them to cope with long trips in the trailer, often staying overnight in strange places, the atmosphere and limited chances to exercise at agricultural shows etc. without making any more changes in their eating or other routines.

Edited April 16, 2010 by 4Kelpies

[Seita]

As I feed my dogs breakfast I don't tend to feed them the day of a trial, or only a small amount especially if it's a day time trial or an early afternoon trial. I don't use food rewards for trialling but I'd rather they not have a belly full of food when I'm trying to get the most out of them.

In the early stages of training I did limit the toys that my dog had access to, she got things like treat dispensing toys but nothing super exciting as I was trying to build desire for the toys that I trained with. Now that she's beyond that stage of training and I've fostered a very high desire for anything I've got she has free access to squeekies and chew toys and all kinds of things and I don't feel that it affects her drive. In the early days I would make sure that during training sessions she only had access to my toy but now she can work with all her other toys strewn across the yard and doesn't even notice they are there.

I tend not to train my dog the day of a competition but will usually do a normal session the day/night before.

She never has access to other dogs, at the moment she's my only dog and when I have multiple dogs I tend to run them separately anyway. She doesn't mix well with other dogs and also doesn't have a big desire to play with them. But if she did I would definitely deprive her of this to the extent where she could only play with boring dogs and only play for short periods of time.

I also limit what other people can do with her, pats are allowed for a short while but after that she is ignored otherwise she just gets a bit obsessed about getting cuddles and that's not something I want. I don't tend to allow people to play games with her or feed her and I'm forever yelling at my husband for getting her all worked up and excited for no reason! If she's on a break from competition my rules do tend to be relaxed and I will allow her more pats/cuddles and I do allow short games of fetch but once she's back in competition this all stops unless it's from me. I think this is probably the only way I really deprive her and I do so because she has such a high value for other people and getting pats that I don't want to risk her starting to value a stranger as potentially more rewarding than me when we're in a competition ring.

[MrsD]

I feed my dogs in the evening just before bed & I often train in the evenings before feeding, if I have a trial the next day I will give a smaller feed the night before (about 1/2 normal feed), but only because I will no doubt have trained that night & they will get rewards at the trial as well the next day. Apart from that, no fasting for training, my dogs are all food motivated, even after dinner . I'm not sure what you mean by depriving them of treats, my dogs work for everything in life apart from pats, they do get some of those for free, but only a few .

I don't particularly restrict activity before a trial &/or training but I do use a crate when I train (if that makes sense!). I will put my dog in a crate for 2 or 3 minutes before I start training, then bring them out, train/have a game etc & then back in the crate for 30 seconds to a minute, out to train/play a game, back in the crate for another 30 seconds to a minute etc. This builds alot of drive.

The only toy that I don't allow access to is a frisbee, mainly because it would be chewed into a 1000 pieces in less than 5 minutes of Jarrah got hold of it . Jarrah has a stack of tug toys of different varieties in the yard & is contantly at the backdoor or at the gate offering a toy. For him there is no drive satisfaction unless a person plays with him, so I don't care that he has toys in the yard, I have a stack that I keep for training, but only because otherwise I can't find one when I need one (we have a large yard, with lots of places for them to get lost!). Jonty & Whisper are not particularly toy obsessed like he is, although Whisper does like a game of tug when I give her one.

I don't have to deprive either Jarrah or Whisper of attention from other people (or dogs for that matter), Jarrah doesn't particularly like other people much, so he just completely ignores them, I've never seen him show an interest in getting a pat etc from anyone outside our family. Whisper will briefly say hello to someone, wag her tail once or twice & then turn back to me. Similarly with dogs, she will either completely ignore them or have a quick sniff for a couple of seconds & then turn back to me. Jonty is the only one of my dogs who actively likes people (other than our family) & loves getting attention & pats from other people. He's not particularly worried by other dogs, certainly doesn't dislike them & isn't scared of them, he will have a little play or a sniff with another dog but will readily come back if I call him.

ETA - I've just read the responses in the thread (doh!), my dogs only get treats when training, if there are scraps etc then they come inside & have to do something for the treat (even if it's as simple as a sit).

I have crated Jarrah the morning of a trial once because it was such a hot day & I didn't want him running around & getting over heated, but apart from that, if they need to be locked up so they are out of the way & for sleeping in at night I only crate as described above as part of the training.

Edited April 17, 2010 by MrsD

[Starkehre]

Yep, I do cosmolo. I deprive my bitch of gushy lovin from the arvo/evening before a trial and right til after the test is complete the next day. I also cut the meal to bear minimum the night before and just the tiniest bit in the morning.

My bitch mostly trains and trials in food drive, but it does fritter away during the heeling pattern off leash, so we need every bit of pack drive we can muster, and I create this with semi ignoring her prior to the trial. Of course she is totally cared for etc, not neglected, but just not gushed over. When I gush over her she couldn't care less about me. When I semi ignore she want me more... just like teenage love,

Her competative drive is also enhanced if she sees me giving any attention to other dogs at the trial. I am not big on this as my guilt gets the better of me, but it does help her heeling.

I only need this one last pass tomorrow, and we are retiring her from obedience anyway, so no more of mum's silly games

Edited April 17, 2010 by dyzney

[Erny]

I only need this one last pass tomorrow, and we are retiring her from obedience anyway, so no more of mum's silly games

Oh wow, Dyzney ...... Good luck for tomorrow !!

[Starkehre]

I only need this one last pass tomorrow, and we are retiring her from obedience anyway, so no more of mum's silly games

Oh wow, Dyzney ...... Good luck for tomorrow !!

Thanks Erny. I would love to do Open with her, but I think the jumping might be a much for her now at her age.

She is doing herding now, so saying goodbye to obedience again til Jaggy bum comes out, hopefully later this year.