Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 HI, I have 2 male staffordshire bull terriers when they were 10mths of age they were both dianosed with mange, it was determined it was "puppy mange" as they were both from the same litter and both had the mites and my other dog from another litter did not, now Simba didn't have it too bad just ended up with a tiny patch on his back but Razz did (1st to develop signs) had it severly (the first vet we took them too denied it was mange and said it was just a allergy. In the end we had to take him to the next major town to see someone else as he had lost 50-75% of fur on his chest and neck and had round patches on his back, then the 2nd vet didnt do much either so in Aug we moved to better job so at #3 vet and they are fantastic but very pricey) Razz had to be put on antibiotics (as he has secondary infection or something like that) as well as both were on weekly ivomec injections and weekly demodex washes, he was on anti biotics and shots for about 3 mths his brother stopped the weekly injections after 2, on his last trip the vet did numerous scrapping (and at $19.50 a scraping it wasnt cheap) and found all mites were dead, now they had both stopped weekly injections but i had to keep up weekly baths until all hair returned so that was about december but ive kept up every 2nd week. i removed all bedding that they were sleeping on before and threw it out, but now it seems Razz is thining out again under his neck. What should i do? How can he get mites again if they were dead? his brother has no signs of thinning hair anywhere. There is nothing left here that they slept on when they had mites. I need some help, ive already spent at least $2000 on trying to treat this, as i got all different kinds of medicines to help their skin and immune system, the consultations cost me $45 a dog, ivomec was about $14 a shot, demodex $19.95, this fish oil syrup is $50 for a 1lt bottle, anitbiotics $25 week. Plus all the new bedding. Then they are on a healthy home made diet to help them. Is this thing treatable? I need some help, i love my boys to death and i dont want them with no fur again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Oh yeah they started treatment late July Early Aug this is with the 3rd vet with all the anti-biotics and more washes and creames and these oils to put in their food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 It is treatable, but its a long haul. I suspect from what you've said that the treatment you got from the 3rd vet just didn't go long enough and you still have an underlying demodex infection and possibly also an allergy of some kind. Ivermectin treatments (or doramectin / Dectomax) really need to go for at least one month, preferably two, after a negative scrape. A negative scrape means no sign of a mite, not just seeing dead mites. How long was each course of antibiotics? Did the other vets ever treat the "allergies" with anything? It's a big topic and theres lots of information. Feel free to PM me or catch me on MSN if you wish - I have am going through a hectic couple of days at the moment but I already have a bit of catching up to do early next week, a little bit more wont hurt me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Well after the last ivamec injection they were still on weekly baths with the demadex wash for at least a month or two and then i slowed it back to 2 weeks. They are still getting bathed but ive stepped it back upto every week but it doesnt appear to be helping. The antibiotics he was on was for larger dogs (to try and cut costs as instead of needing one whole tablet he only needed half on one of these) he had to take half a tablet 3 times a day and was on them everyday for about 2 and a half months to 3 mths. The first vet told me to use malaseb i think it was, and malawash in case it was a flea alergy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldchow Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 This is a terribly frustrating condition RazzaMaTazz, I have similar problems with a chow bitch who is to be desexed due to the fluctuations in hormones causing a break out every time she comes into season. Demodex is basically an immune system problem and if you can build this up and try to keep your boys as stress free as possible, it can be a tremendous help. It is also highly infectious so could be transferring from one dog to the other, particularly if both immune systems are down. You yourself can also be unintentionally transferring the mite by patting one then the other. Unfortunately the Ivomectin injections and washes, although an evil necessity when the mites are really bad, actually lower the immune system even further. Once I have the problem here under reasonable control I have found the addition of sulpher powder, dolomite and kelp (about 1/4 teaspoon of each) to the diet every day, along with a good teaspoon of Missing Link seems to work really well. Much slower to get results but better for the dog in the long run. I gained this info from a vet who uses natural remedies wherever possible (totally against using Ivomectin) and it might pay you to discuss this with a "natural' vet in your area. Some will do phone consults, at a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 It is also highly infectious so could be transferring from one dog to the other, particularly if both immune systems are down.You yourself can also be unintentionally transferring the mite by patting one then the other. Most manges are highly contagious, however, Demodex is NOT contaigious.... "Demodectic mange is caused by a microscopic mite called Demodex canis. All dogs raised normally by their mothers possess this mite as mites are transferred from mother to pup via cuddling during the first few days of life. (After the pup is older it is unable to pick up demodex mites. Puppies raised by hand, do not ever get demodex mites.) For some reason, conditions change in certain dogs to allow demodex mites to "gain the upper hand;" the mites proliferate and can cause serious skin disease." http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_demodectic_mange.html Do a search for "demodectic mange" on google and you can find a wealth of information and treatments. As stated in the quote above all dogs have demodex mites, but on some dogs they get out of control.... often this is seen ins dogs with immunological problems such as allergies and getting these problems under control will also help with the treatment of demodex. A referral to a dermatological specialist may be in order to help determine what these pup's underlying immune system problems are. Staffys and other bullies are prone to allergies and also prone to demodex.... Do a bit of reading about demodex on the web and decide what you want to do next.... specialists are expensive, but all their knowledge really helps!! Took us a year and a half to get Zayda's allergies and demodex sorted.... its a long and expensive road but worth it when you have a happy healthy pup Good luck Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldchow Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Well we learn something every day, thank you zayda_asher for that link, however perhaps Demodex can be spread to other dogs who also have low immune problems. My girl runs with all the others here without a problem however I have vivid recollections of my vet scrubbing his hands vigorously with antiseptic after handling my girl and stating that it was infectious and he did not want to run the risk of taking it home to his Doberman, who also had a demodex problem, which makes me wonder if it could be transmitted to others with low immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 thanxs for your msg, i know that demodex mange is not transferable, as they have lived with 4 other dogs and the rest have not caught anything so i knew it was contained with them 2, I made sure i knew of that, as i wouldn't like any other owner having to go through the same struggle. It's just got me buggered, as ive followed the vets instructions and it's coming back again, im just glad it's only the one dog this time, but i was wondering whether or not to put him back on ivamec, i don't want to go throw the furless dog again, it's just even boosting the baths back up it seems it's still thining out. Just before symtems appeared we had just moved into my partners mother's old house, and i know he did get a bit itchy from running through the old chook shed. I just don't understand if all the mites were dead then how do they come back alive?? Would getting him de-sexed help at all? Is there any other kind of medicine i can give him to boost his immune system to fight these little bugs. And i know it's a expensive road, like i said earlier we've spent over $2000 at the vets in the past 6 mths, at least the vets know us though!!! I just want my pooches healthy, it's just so frustrating as i try to take the best of care of my animals (which is hard at times when you have 5 running around, and 2 boys the same age not de-sexed trying to dominate everyone and the neighbours dogs are at the gate trying to pick a fight, its a mad house around here i know breeders handle many dogs but mine all get the freedom of inside and outside but the dis-advantages of not being able to play with the 3 cats that live downstairs) Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have vivid recollections of my vet scrubbing his hands vigorously with antiseptic after handling my girl and stating that it was infectious and he did not want to run the risk of taking it home to his Doberman, who also had a demodex problem, which makes me wonder if it could be transmitted to others with low immunity. Perhaps if this was a few years ago they used to think that it could be transmitted? All our vets, including our dermatologist, stated that it is in no way contagious to any dog as its their own immune system and micro fauna that they are fighting and the mites cannot actually be transferred from one dog to another.... This was approx 2.5 years ago so maybe its just one of those things where we've improved our knowledge of how demodex works.... RazzaMaTaz: I would try getting a referral to a specialist to work out what other immunological problems you boy might have.... All the suppliments that Goldchow suggests are great: unless of course it turns out that he has an allergy to any of the things used in the suppliments!!! The fish oil is crucial to the condition of their skin and immune system and they will probably be on it for life - esp. if they do have allergies.... I would certainly be following Rappie's advice as they are a Vet Intern, whom has done training in dermatology and are certainly giving you the right professional course of action. As Rappie says its just quite probable that you didn't "nuke" the demodex well enough to solve the problem and if other immunological problems are not treated you may well continue to have flare ups with the demodex. As demodex is not contaigous there is no need for you to go through the expense of new bedding etc. again.... They can't be reinfected in this way.... Zayda's allergy & demodex treatments had cost us $12,000 BEFORE we stopped counting (and that was with some substatial discounts!!)- we've actually spent a few more grand on her immmunotherapy, antihistamenes, suppliments etc. etc. since then and will continue to do so for her life.... Because we have her allergies under control and are treating them the demodex has cleared and is no longer an issue... She is truely the most expensive dog I have owned, but man she is worth it!!! As they have demodex I personally would be desexing both of them as dogs who develop demodex should not be bred from as there are strong herditary links to demodex and immunological problems.... I know you haven't said that you have any intentions of breeding from them, but accidents do still happen ! Good luck Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Dear Razzamataz I notices you wrote that your dog started to break out again when you moved. Any stress to the dog can cause a break out again. It could be if he is worrying about girls, post operative stress , moving, fretting just anything that upsets his immunity can cause dogs to have a relapse so to speak. I have known dogs that this has happened to. I would get him desexed for sure but not until his skin is good again. I think you can keep them on Proban for dermadex, this might be better than all the washes perhaps discuss this with your vet. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larns Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I feel your pain, we had the same problem, first vet told me to stop being so silly and so on. Roxy is now finally being treated for mange correctly, we thought we were on top of it, and she is finally even getting hair back, but alas, on the weekend there are new spots so we are continuing with daily ivomec (which I was under the impression was more effective than injections) and weekly washes. Good luck, lots of good advice on this forum, I am sure that you will beat it with time. Moving probably has had a big impact on the mange, as stress is a big factor and that was when Roxy got her mange really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bommy Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Our first experience with Demodex Mange was last year in July which we treated with Ivomectin, it seemed to work but after a stressful rushed interstate trip Major got it back again. STRESS does affect the resurgence of the mange mites, Treatment does kill the mites but you have to be very careful. ESPECIALLY WITH TREATMENTS THAT ARE USED OFF LABEL SUCH AS IVOMECTIN - it can lead to more serious health issues later. IE Liver disease kidney failure etc. A dog that has a low immunity will have reoccurring cases of demodex right up until it passes to the bridge UNLESS you address the immunity issues first. This is done by assisting the dogs body with its Thymus & T cells, there are a lot of great holistic products out there that will assist you. Once immunity is addressed a successful treatment should then basically resolve any issues however if the dog is put in any stressful situations it may appear again & need retreating, the thing is as soon as it gets that moth eaten look you have to hit it straight away. We used the ivomecting first up & it did work but then when Major's demodex reoccurred we had staph infections as well & so the ivomectin got thrown in the bin. PFIZER have a great product called dectomax injections, which is relatively new, which consisted of weekly injections for 6 - 8 weeks then fortnightly for a mth & then mthly until we had clear scrapings for 2mths. Demodex is passed from Bitch to puppy at birth & research is now showing that the immune system as well is also passed on genetically so if the bitch has a poor immunity then you could;d risk it being passed on. BTW the state CC's actually consider it unethical & action can be taken against breeders that breed with bitches that have had Mange, we took action against Majors breeders. Demodex CAN NOT be caught from an environment, all dogs have demodex mites in their skin, it is their immune system that fights off the effect that the mange has. Are your dogs desexed? This is something you should look at after you treat this case successfully, as it is believed that desexing the dogs after a successful mange treatment will assist in boosting a poor immune system. YOU ARE NOT ALONE THERE ARE A FEW OF US WHO HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IT & IT IS FRUSTRATING, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Jacqui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Thanks for all the advice, any idea's on what kind of product's i can introduce to them to help their immune system out? As i don't know what to look for, The stress thing could actually explain alot as in January i had another dog here but i had to place her in a new home as my neighbour found out she was half pitty and thats about the time he started thinning out again. Which isn't good when we were looking at trying to find a new house on more property to give them some extra space. That ivamection (with the weekly injections then f/nightly, monthly) stuff the 2nd vet had him on and it didn't help out, thats why when we changed vets yet again they used ivamec (every week as well as a demodex bath also we were given tactic which is what im actually using now was cheaper buying this tin than a small bottle every 2nd week, alot more potent too) and the results were really visable within 2 weeks. It then doesn't help when any light coloured dogs seem to have alergy's to the grass, due to the area being built around mines. It took me forever to locate the source. At least that only requires a little cream and maybe some antibiotics if it really flares up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadia Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Be VERY careful using tactic. Did your vet reccomend this??? Also be aware that your dogs immune system is being knocked around badly by the chemicals. I would seriously consider throwing all the chemicals out and trying a natural approach via diet and supplements. There have been some great threads on here with some good advice from Steve that you could search for. Has Neem Oil shampoo been suggested? It is worth a try too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Yes my vet recommended and sold me tactic as it cost about $45 a tin, and the demadex wash was 20 bottle and it didnt last long. So that's what they are being washed with now, as i rang up the vet yesterday and explained my situation and they said keep washing him weekly and if there is no change in 3 weeks bring him back to be put on ivamec again. The only supplement i was recommended was megaderm. Other than that I was told nothing. Might sound a little strange but i like the vet, as my dogs have always been EXTREMELY hesitant on strangers touching them, and Razz would usually wet himself, not once have they ever had a problem going here, havent wet themselves or complained plus our first visit we were in their for over a hour and a half when she didnt have to. My dogs get a diet of mince, pasta, rice, mixed vegetables, egg, chicken and then (as i have 2 pups here my boys refuse to eat adult kibble so instead of them stealing the pups they all get same food) purina one puppy chow. They get the megaderm every morning mixed in either some dog milk or porrige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bommy Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I would change the Purina to a better quality kibble. We use Advance & it is pricey but good & is a better quality but there are heaps of others out there that have a better quality as well. I would put some sardines in their diets as well, maybe some foods high in Omega oils & some flaxseed oil as well. This all helps their skin, spinach as well will help. Unless you are cooking the mince I would drop that & replace it with something else. Raw mince can hold a lot of bacteria & also have a lot of preservatives in it unless you are mincing it yourself. Raw chicken, chicken carcass, turkey, emu, kangaroo & vegemite would all help in the diet as well. Jacqui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RazzaMaTaz Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Yeah i know about the raw mince, but i make sure it's throughly cooked. Their picky, they won't touch kangaroo meat or stuff like that. The main reason i make up my own food is that otherwise they won't eat any kibble and "dig" out the best part of the meal and leave the rest, at least this way they can't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I would change the Purina to a better quality kibble. We use Advance & it is pricey but good & is a better quality but there are heaps of others out there that have a better quality as well.I would put some sardines in their diets as well, maybe some foods high in Omega oils & some flaxseed oil as well. This all helps their skin, spinach as well will help. Unless you are cooking the mince I would drop that & replace it with something else. Raw mince can hold a lot of bacteria & also have a lot of preservatives in it unless you are mincing it yourself. Raw chicken, chicken carcass, turkey, emu, kangaroo & vegemite would all help in the diet as well. Jacqui I agree with all of this assuming that there are no underlying food allergies and they turn out to be allergic to any of these things ;) A lot of these suppliments etc. are great and do help, but they are only treating / allieviating the symptoms if the underlying immunological problem is not treated.... If the dog does turn out to be allergic to any of these things then it is only exacerbating the problem. For example: Zayda (my girl) is allergic to sardines and tuna... to feed her these as a source of omega 3s would be a disaster!!! However, she's not allergic to mackerel, herring or salmon and gets all 3, as well as a cold pressed salmon oil suppliment for the EPA which is great for their skin! Working out what exactly makes their immune system crappy is enough to drive you crazy but in the long run it is easier and less insane making than only treating symptoms and the dog will have a longer, healthier life. If it was me I'd be taking Rappie up on their wonderful (and extremely generous) offer to PM them and have a FREE chat to someone with vetinary and dermatological experience... IMO that's an "offer that's to good to refuse!!" (*sigh* there's no "God Father" emoticon ). Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Razzamataz, I didn't want to post earlier because I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight, and coincidentally today- I realised I did! The product ADVOCATE by Bayer, which treats for heartworm, fleas, intestinal worms and ear mites, now has their claim approved for Demodex mite as well. Our rep dropped off some info on it today...they are saying 2-4 continuous treatments provides a 97% success rate. Apart from the immune system and food allergy problems your dog might be having, you can use Advocate as an alternative to ivomec. If it were my dog- I'd go for it. My dogs are on it for Heartworm/flea/worm treatment, I've had no probs so far. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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