Jenna's Hips And Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis

[teekay]

I discovered an old thread on Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis (JPS) on the Breeders Forum here, so I thought I would document our recent experience.

We got Jenna from what I now realise was probably a puppy farm . She is Golden Retriever x Samoyed and I know that I should not have bought her. I was ignorant of the whole problems with designer cross breeds and made the fatal mistake of 'falling in love' with her on the internet. I am now VERY much aware of the problems of designer cross breeds/puppy farms/pet shops etc., thanks to this and other forums. I cannot turn the clock back and I am doing everything I can to help Jenna now.

I discovered, thanks to a posting by another person on a different forum, that there was a very strong likelihood of Jenna developing Hip Dysplasia. Her dog of the same crossbreed was bought in Melbourne, where Jenna came from, and at 7.5 months has been diagnosed with Hip dysplasia in both hips. She has reason to believe her dog is not the only one from this place that is having problems with their hips. I sought the advise of Richard Mitchell up here on the Sunshine Coast who, a number of you DOLers seem to hold in high esteem, so I have put my trust in him. Jenna had her PenHipp x-rays done yesterday and the results were not good. Her distraction index was 0.6/0.7. On Richard's advice we went straight ahead and had the JPS proceedure done and she was de-sexed at the same time. She is exactly 18 weeks old so hopefully in time for the JPS to be beneficial.

Over the last week I have been searching the internet for someone who has had this JPS done on their dog and have not been able to find any so I really wanted to post on here and continue to do so with Jenna's progress over the years so people can see how she developes. This proceedure is in it's infancy so it is hard to know if we have done the right thing. We will probably never know for sure, but the studies so far seem to be encouraging. We are also making sure she doesn't grow too fast and are limiting her exercise til she is 12 months old. It is hard, as all I really want to do is take her for a good run on the Beach like I used to with our Labrador who sadly died in April, but I know it will be worth it in the long run if her hips develop normally.

If anyone is interested in further reading the following link is quite informative

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=297&t=

Bye for now and here's a picture of my baby

[Missymoo]

I just wanted to post a big for you teekay for sticking around DOL and learning so much. Good onya!

If your dog (and Id like to suggest this to the other persons whose same cross got HD) gets HD can you go back to these "breeders" with a certificate etc of the diagnoses? You always hear of pet owners doing that to registered breeders who try there darndest with testing of parents etc but no one seems to challenge the pet farmers??

Just curious?

Sounds like you ahve done some admirable research and your baby is (now) in good hands

Edited September 23, 2009 by Missymoo

[Rottifan]

Wow, I'm so glad your baby has got you - someone with the heart and love enough to do all that possibly can be done when so many wouldnt...and thanks for sharing your story so other people can also learn and not give up during the tough times. I wanted to give you some advice that I learnt when it was almost too late and I am eternally grateful for. I have a 9yr old rotti x who has severe elbow displaysia and bad hip scores too. After years of regular xrays and vets not being "too concerned" as I travelled the country with work it was all too late when I got one who was more thorough when paralysis set in. By this stage bones were too bad to be able to operate and joint replacement was out of the question as was the success rate and rehab for him etc. My vet suggested I try acupuncture for pain relief which showed a little improvement in movement and therefore no doubt pain with his condition. I was then told of an animal chiropractor doing mobile service in Brisbane who used to work on the police dogs so was very experienced with large grumpy breeds! My dog is now on no medication and shows no symptoms apart from being like a puppy again....seems it was pinched nerves in his back causing the symptoms not the actual displaysia at that time and I am just so glad. I will make sure any new dog I get goes to Dr Jamie son from a young puppy to keep them on track for life.

Good luck and big pats on the back for you!

[teekay]

I just wanted to post a big :) for you teekay for sticking around DOL and learning so much. Good onya!

If your dog (and Id like to suggest this to the other persons whose same cross got HD) gets HD can you go back to these "breeders" with a certificate etc of the diagnoses? You always hear of pet owners doing that to registered breeders who try there darndest with testing of parents etc but no one seems to challenge the pet farmers??

Just curious?

Sounds like you ahve done some admirable research and your baby is (now) in good hands

Thanks for your reply Missymoo, I will definitely be in touch with the breeder if Jenna does get HD, at the moment I don't think there is much I can do as the DI is only an indication of future problems and not a definite diagnosis. The other person I know got her dog from a pet shop but we strongly suspect it is the same breeder as there are not many places crossing these 2 breeds and they both came from Melbourne. The pet shop refuses to tell her, or me, who the breeder is. Not suprisingly

[teekay]

Wow, I'm so glad your baby has got you - someone with the heart and love enough to do all that possibly can be done when so many wouldnt...and thanks for sharing your story so other people can also learn and not give up during the tough times. I wanted to give you some advice that I learnt when it was almost too late and I am eternally grateful for. I have a 9yr old rotti x who has severe elbow displaysia and bad hip scores too. After years of regular xrays and vets not being "too concerned" as I travelled the country with work it was all too late when I got one who was more thorough when paralysis set in. By this stage bones were too bad to be able to operate and joint replacement was out of the question as was the success rate and rehab for him etc. My vet suggested I try acupuncture for pain relief which showed a little improvement in movement and therefore no doubt pain with his condition. I was then told of an animal chiropractor doing mobile service in Brisbane who used to work on the police dogs so was very experienced with large grumpy breeds! My dog is now on no medication and shows no symptoms apart from being like a puppy again....seems it was pinched nerves in his back causing the symptoms not the actual displaysia at that time and I am just so glad. I will make sure any new dog I get goes to Dr Jamie son from a young puppy to keep them on track for life.

Good luck and big pats on the back for you!

Thanks for your reply Rottifan. Where abouts is Dr Jamieson? I would love to have the opportunity to see him if Jenna does deteriorate when she is older. I'm on the Sunny Coast in QLD

[lovealab]

"Jenna had her PenHipp x-rays done yesterday and the results were not good. Her distraction index was 0.6/0.7. On Richard's advice we went straight ahead and had the JPS proceedure done and she was de-sexed at the same time. She is exactly 18 weeks old so hopefully in time for the JPS to be beneficial."

Just wondered how the results came through immediately, as the xrays have to go to America??

Either way I hope she is OK, she obviously has a great family with you!!

Interesting that Pennhip (Pennsylvania University) does still not recommend JPS on the results of DI

(taken from PennHip's website)-

My vet has advised a surgical procedure to avoid the development of arthritis in my dog later in life based on the results of his PennHIP examination. Should I have my dog operated on?

Answer:

Until appropriate randomized and controlled clinical trials are designed and conducted, it is premature to use the Distraction Index as an indication for hip surgery, either remedial or preventive. At present several different surgical procedures (Triple pelvic osteotomy, Juvenile symphysiodesis) have been advocated by some veterinary surgeons to prevent the development of arthritis (degenerative joint disease) later in life in dogs with excess joint laxity (loose hips). None of these procedures have undergone scientific clinical trials that have proven THEIR EFFICACY in preventing the onset or slowing the development of arthritis in dogs with hip dysplasia. Although WE ARE not fundamentally against the use of preventative surgical management of dogs with excessive hip laxity, WE FEEL THE WHOLESALE CLINICAL USE OF PURPORTEDLY PREVENTIVE SURGICAL PROCEDURES BEFORE ADEQUATE TESTING IS CONDUCTED, IS UNJUSTIFIED. WE ADVISE CAUTION! It may be that in the future when good evidence exists to support the efficacy of these procedures their use will be encouraged.

[teekay]

"Jenna had her PenHipp x-rays done yesterday and the results were not good. Her distraction index was 0.6/0.7. On Richard's advice we went straight ahead and had the JPS proceedure done and she was de-sexed at the same time. She is exactly 18 weeks old so hopefully in time for the JPS to be beneficial."

Just wondered how the results came through immediately, as the xrays have to go to America??

Either way I hope she is OK, she obviously has a great family with you!!

Interesting that Pennhip (Pennsylvania University) does still not recommend JPS on the results of DI

(taken from PennHip's website)-

My vet has advised a surgical procedure to avoid the development of arthritis in my dog later in life based on the results of his PennHIP examination. Should I have my dog operated on?

Answer:

Until appropriate randomized and controlled clinical trials are designed and conducted, it is premature to use the Distraction Index as an indication for hip surgery, either remedial or preventive. At present several different surgical procedures (Triple pelvic osteotomy, Juvenile symphysiodesis) have been advocated by some veterinary surgeons to prevent the development of arthritis (degenerative joint disease) later in life in dogs with excess joint laxity (loose hips). None of these procedures have undergone scientific clinical trials that have proven THEIR EFFICACY in preventing the onset or slowing the development of arthritis in dogs with hip dysplasia. Although WE ARE not fundamentally against the use of preventative surgical management of dogs with excessive hip laxity, WE FEEL THE WHOLESALE CLINICAL USE OF PURPORTEDLY PREVENTIVE SURGICAL PROCEDURES BEFORE ADEQUATE TESTING IS CONDUCTED, IS UNJUSTIFIED. WE ADVISE CAUTION! It may be that in the future when good evidence exists to support the efficacy of these procedures their use will be encouraged.

Although officially the results are supposed to come from America, a good orthopeadic surgeon can work them out for himself. I am trusting that Richard knows what he is doing and am following his recommendation. JPS is a 'relatively' minimaley invasive surgery, compared to TPO and given Jenna's probable genetic disposition to HD AND her DI we made the decision to go ahead. This is taken from one of the many websites I found:

A cooperative clinical trial is under way with several surgeons around the country. Longest follow-up to date is three years, and the results continue to be encouraging; however, more information regarding the ultimate outcome of dogs undergoing JPS must be collected

As I said we will probably never know if we made the right decision (If only we all had a crystal ball) but I would hate to have got a year down the track and regretted not taking the opportunity when we could. This is why I wanted to document our experience on here for anyone who might want to see how Jenna fairs over the years.

[Rottifan]

Jamieson is based at Willowbank but I've used him because of the millions of testimonials he had when I visited his clinic when he was working from Yatala at the time AND also because he offers a mobile service coming to your house (same price regardless of whether its afterhours, weekends or public holidays - great when you're as busy and unorganised as me!!). www.######.com is the website - I only wish I'd found him sooner. When I was there people with show dogs were turning up with a trailer of 10 border collies/bull terriers including with really young puppies and swore by his magic hands - the ribbons they'd won they attributed to his treatments just prior to their shows. He also said to me that he does dogs from 3 months of age to ensure that any of the nerves pinched which they may have got from puppy stage (mum stepping on them in the litter, rough play with litter mates, being dropped by breeders etc) can be sorted out so they grow properly and move properly from a young age and dont end up with early diagnosis of cruciate ligament problems or other issues so might be a good idea to look into it before your lovable one reaches that 'old age stage', I surely wish I could turn back the clock and had done myself thats all. Goodluck hey!!

[Fordogs]

Teekay,

May I ask what symptoms your puppy was showing prior to the surgery?

[teekay]

Teekay,

May I ask what symptoms your puppy was showing prior to the surgery?

So far Jenna was not showing any symptoms which is what made it so difficult to make the decision. I still agonize over whether it was the right thing to do but you can't 'wait and see' with this proceedure as it's too late once they get to 22 weeks.

[Fordogs]

Teekay,

Did you feel intimidated or blackmailed into the procedure?

Did they make you feel as if you had to do the procedure ASAP for your puppies well being?

Did you just take your puppy in for a vaccination and they brought the subject up of JPS?

Did they want you to book the procedure there and then.

How old was your puppy at the time.

From what you have already said I take it that you have already read my other thread on Juvenile Pubic Symphyodesis that I started 23/02/2009.

I was told by DOGS NSW that they were going to do an article on this but as yet it has not been done (I live in hope that it will happen).

At the moment I have a litter of puppies and in my puppy package I will be adding a warning about vets that offer this procedure, they will also be given a veterinarian of recommendation for the area where they live.

[teekay]

Did you feel intimidated or blackmailed into the procedure?

Did they make you feel as if you had to do the procedure ASAP for your puppies well being?

Did you just take your puppy in for a vaccination and they brought the subject up of JPS?

Did they want you to book the procedure there and then.

How old was your puppy at the time.

Hi

Okay, I will try to answer your questions. Firstly, yes, this procedure was first mentioned when I took Jenna in for her vaccinations at 12 weeks but there was no pressure and I had decided not to go ahead with any further hip investigations or JPS. They did talk about the time limit for such a procedure and actually told me it had to be done by 16 weeks. No they did not want to book me in there and then and it was left as a open invitation if I wanted to proceed. As I said, I decided not to bother.

THEN I had a bombshell dropped on me on 15 Sept. On another forum someone posted about a dog (same crossbreed as mine) they had bought from a pet shop in Melbourne which had been diagnosed with HD at 7.5 months. They also believe another dog of the same breed from the same pet shop had had a complete hip replacement at 1.5 years. Given the relative rarity of my crossbreed I made enquiries about where her pup could originally have come from. There is no conclusive evidence but it is looking highly likely they came from the same place. Jenna, at this point was 17 weeks old. I thought she was too old for the JPS at this point but I did some research on the internet and most places said you could do it up to 20 weeks, after which the benefits were negligible.

Sadly I lost my adorable Labrador in April of this year but still had the business card of the specialist vet that was treating her so I gave them a call and Richard Mitchell told me he would see us (with a referral from our original vet). The rest is pretty much history. DI not good and probable genetic history resulting in recommendation to go ahead and do the JPS. I think the problem I faced was not being able to find ANYONE who had had this done to their pup so I couldn't talk to anyone about how their pup faired. From the internet research I did, the results seemed promising but obviously it is early days. I still look at Jenna and ask myself if I have done the right thing. She was fine and might have continued that way. OR she may have been diagnosed a few months down the track and I would feel awful that I didn't take the opportunity when I had it.

I did read your earlier thread with great interest and have had some lovely replies on here. As I said I really hope by posting our story it can help somebody in the future. JPS is still a relatively new procedure and I don't believe owner's should be pressurised into it if there is no other evidence of a problem.

Thanks for your reply and sorry if I have repeated myself on here. I didn't check what I had written in previous posts. I have been writing about this to a number of people and I can't remember what I have written where

[lovealab]

I just wondered of you could keep us updated, and when the results come back from PennHip if you could let us know the results.

Good luck in the meantime..

[Fordogs]

lovealab,

they don't send them away, they are read on site and the surgery is performed on the same day, they HAVE to be desexed at the same time as well.

[alanglen]

Fordogs, have just read your older post, have had the same thing happen to me with my last litter.

2 new owners took pups to same vet clinic and at second vacc (first was with me, owners first visit to clinic), they were booked in for spey and pennhip with potential JPS, despite both puppy families arriving with folders with 3 generations of great hip scores and a vet (me) breeders details! I clearly got a little heated to say the least and now these pups drive further and return to see me. The clinic made no apologies and felt that prevention was better that cure! I did try to explain that's why hip scores were done etc but got no-where! The parents of these pups are working and show dogs and clearly quite agile with great scores!

Personally, as a vet, I'm not a fan of JPS nor pennhip, still waiting until the jury returns before I form my opinion!

[Fordogs]

If we allow it this will just go away and people will forget all about the subject until one of their puppies is involved. It is all about education. Send your puppies off to their new homes with a warning for the owner to contact you first before letting any vet touch their new baby That is what I do.

[lovealab]

lovealab,

they don't send them away, they are read on site and the surgery is performed on the same day, they HAVE to be desexed at the same time as well.

Interesting that the vet is not sending the xrays away, seeing it is mandatory..... Makes me wonder why???

Taken from the Pennhip website.

"Mandatory Film Submission

For optimal validity, it is mandatory that all hip radiographs by PennHIP veterinarians be submitted for analysis and inclusion in the PennHIP database. This policy eliminates the practice of "prescreening" radiographs and sending only the best hips for evaluation. This "prescreening" practice has been shown to result in a biased database containing a greater frequency of non-diseased hips than actually exists in the true population. Excluding the worst hips leads to a false impression that genetic progress is being made."

[teekay]

lovealab,

they don't send them away, they are read on site and the surgery is performed on the same day, they HAVE to be desexed at the same time as well.

Interesting that the vet is not sending the xrays away, seeing it is mandatory..... Makes me wonder why???

Taken from the Pennhip website.

"Mandatory Film Submission

For optimal validity, it is mandatory that all hip radiographs by PennHIP veterinarians be submitted for analysis and inclusion in the PennHIP database. This policy eliminates the practice of "prescreening" radiographs and sending only the best hips for evaluation. This "prescreening" practice has been shown to result in a biased database containing a greater frequency of non-diseased hips than actually exists in the true population. Excluding the worst hips leads to a false impression that genetic progress is being made."

I do not know whether the vet is sending the xrays to PennHIP, he didn't say. I do think with the JPS though if you had to wait for results from PennHIP it would cause a delay which we could not afford given Jenna was already 18 weeks.

[lovealab]

lovealab,

they don't send them away, they are read on site and the surgery is performed on the same day, they HAVE to be desexed at the same time as well.

Interesting that the vet is not sending the xrays away, seeing it is mandatory..... Makes me wonder why???

Taken from the Pennhip website.

"Mandatory Film Submission

For optimal validity, it is mandatory that all hip radiographs by PennHIP veterinarians be submitted for analysis and inclusion in the PennHIP database. This policy eliminates the practice of "prescreening" radiographs and sending only the best hips for evaluation. This "prescreening" practice has been shown to result in a biased database containing a greater frequency of non-diseased hips than actually exists in the true population. Excluding the worst hips leads to a false impression that genetic progress is being made."

I do not know whether the vet is sending the xrays to PennHIP, he didn't say. I do think with the JPS though if you had to wait for results from PennHIP it would cause a delay which we could not afford given Jenna was already 18 weeks.

I would check anyway, would be nice to have their take on the DI (and as a member of Pennhip he MUST submit them.)

[Rottifan]

Just wondering how Jenna is going now? Is she showing any signs of soreness/limping/discomfort? I'd be interested to see how her movement is, hope all is going well for you!!