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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-15/meter-reader-kane-minion-fatal-dog-attack-inquest-gold-coast/105894180

Thanks for the detailed information. The breed chart I shared is a prototype, made after confirming that my own hound is a true cattle dog. I was trying to understand why so many people keep asking if he’s crossed with a Staffy. Posting it here on Dogz Online is deliberate. I believe it’s a topic that should be debated first within Australia, where the breed was born, before refining it for a public, yet autorised, Wiki entry. I understand that ACD is just the one breed according to DA (ANKC), and didn't say CDoA is a recognised breed my any mean. There are at least 2 levels of understanding to a reader on Wikipedia, the one that is official, reconised by litterate, and the one that is simply those who tryes to get a response the the "what's in it", being the broader audience. I do see 2 different types of muts under this appelation: 1 - The one made in Australia to work here under our unique weather, terrain etc, that was brought by Tim Hall in NSW (Dingo, Old English Collie & Northemberland Drover's) and George Eliot in QLD in the 19th centrury (Dingo & Old Engish Collie), that I insist, on my propriety for now, to be called CDoA. 2 - The other one that emerged in early 20st century, Bugust brothers added Dalmatian and then Kelpie, which got around at the time when export was a thing, yanks loved em and also Europeans later. Very logical to have the region's name of where it's from at the top is the animal to be popular oversees. This is the gap I'd be pointing at sinec you asked! This is only how I see it as a sensible person towards my environement. I have difficulties with how the selection is made and believe it would be of interest not only for people who wonder, but also perhaps for the ANKC to consider, as I believe we indeed have 2 separate specimens out there (refer to ACD/CDoA index on my chart). According to my personal approach, the one the was first first noticed and at many other occasions were Bagust types, when I moved to Sydney in 2003. They were all part of an urban setting. That is the one I was told to be ACD. Many years later as I was running my trade down in Victoria, I purchased this specimen, the breeder called ACD, which grew strong with a short snout, a box head, broad shoulders and a pretty thick double coat, the kind that it takes him a while to feel uncomfortable under the rain. Later on, as I moved to Canberra, came through some interesting information as it seemed he was indeed a purebred, however, not the kind that I knew from earlier. To reassure myself, I looked up the winners or ACD competitions and found that the breeder I got my hound from was 100% correct saying his father was a winner in competitions. Those winners looked exactly like my boy, and this is the time when I started digging in. I updated myself with the origins, Hall's heeler in the 19th century, Bentley who from just the one stud was able to select specimens that were at his standard to come up with what I called CDoA as it differs quite a bit from the more modern one who was conceived by the Bagust bros (per Kaleski’s account, this claim stems directly from his writings rather than my own inference) in Sydney in the early 20th century, that, according to Kaleski's book, were crosses with no one but 2 other slimmer breeds such as Dalmatians and the Kelpie. To us, as far as it goes, and I am neither a breeder or an academic, just a tradie, ACD (that became popular for exportation to Europe but mainly the US) are similar however different to the one I understood academics (are you?) call the ACD. Different to a point that, if we are in public, we have to spend time explaining the difference between a Bagust and a Bentley, and I understand why people are that curious, because they are confused. This particular specimen was deemed to suit the illustration of my research as it clearly displayed signs that would make it a fit for a post Bagust. To clarify the comparison between the Bentley and Bagust lines that the Bagust line does have a slimmer jawline than the original from Bentley. This description fits the comparaison, whilst there'd be interest in correcting my wording, I'm open to that as I am not a specialist, just a tradie, just pick the ones I believed to fit only to my liking, so yes definitely let me know which terms to fit best fit describing the physical trains in the scope of comparing those 2 categories that was decided to put through this breed chart, in the event you'd be an authority as it may sound that way? My apologies for that, however, this specimen is the one that is at the top of the ASTCD page on Wikipedia, however, can you tell that it is a post Bagust? I can, without a doubt. Bentley + Dalmatian + Kelpie. Not direct descent from the one I have described further down the diagram. Thank you for this information, I will extend my research even though I take your word for it. I'm unsure where I wrote *recessive genes* as I was unable to find it in my work, meaning the link I shared, even though that term indeed popped into my tradie's mid for a minute but decided not to use it without any advice coming from a genetic literate person. However, I struggle to find any difference between an ACD, a "CDoA" (my trem) and an STCD as the cattle dog indeed carries that bobtail gene, and every now and then, you get one born with it, hence the struggle. I do not own a STCD and my plan wasn't to clarify anything about this official breed, still cannot find what differences are, and happy to receive any clarification. Meanwhile the point I'm attempting to make here is that the difference would actually be between Bentley's and Bagust's lineages, which gets a bob tail popping up every now and then. And when you look at the STCD specimens either out at the park or on infor pages they all look just like a Bagust. Note the picture I found at the National Library in Canberra? To us that's definitely the original. Well, there you go...they knew better! I can't really interfere within academical politics, however this is of some interest as it shows confusion started at an early stage. Seems like more early confusions. Why peck off that poor stumpy tail when even though in 1948, we were basically 48 years after the Bagust type (5 breeds) and the older Bentley's (only 3). To us this is where they perhaps could have done something about, as no one in the world would come out of the woodworks disputing what type of breed your dog is if it just has a short tail. Thanks for putting through this information, it is of interest, however, the work I'm doing is supposed to be clinical and unbiased. This means, no politics, just the breed lines, that's what people are after in the end I do believe. Is the information in Kaleski's book? Or elsewhere? Can you let us know? This could make a difference in my work. Well, isn't it what Hall did with his heelers? In my sources it clearly says that he would not sell them either. He was keeping them only to distribute through his family's stockmen and various stations he owned? Here again, not in scope of what I'm attempting to do. In all courtesy, I must keep my head away from ego wars and other types of noise. Thank you for the reference, I have put it down to my list of readings, however, I hear this is a 2022 release and haven't heard any differentiation between Bagust's and the original Bentley's in your reply, any reason for that? Is the author to further inform us that are not between long tailed short tailed nas this isn't what I'm being put through by passersby in general, hence may not help us create a smoother foot travelling for future generations. Questions to dog specialists (strictly in scope of the candid work I'm conducting, this means no bias of any kind, references would be accepted if clinical): 1. What are, to date, the differences deemed to show clear differences towards phenotype and behaviour between those 2 breeds, apart from tail size or coat patterns? To us (people) so far: Same breed To administration: 2 breeds 2. How do you guys view that main difference in the 2 genotypes my breed chart is outlining regarding ACD (Bentley - 3 stems / Bagust - 5 stems) To us (people) so far: 2 breeds, one rare (Bentley's) To administration: Same breed I'm sure we can agree somewhere, now, is the academy open to advice from some tradie that's not even a breeder, I don't know. Meanwhile, I must take your attention to the reaction my work received from someone I undertood to be a breeder, right here, on this page further above. This breed chart seems to have at least made one person happy so far (it was just the first draft, no pictures, missing a lot of information): By @EastonDean "This ACD breed chart project is a fantastic initiative! Mapping out characteristics and lineage not only helps breeders and owners understand genetic traits but also preserves valuable breed history. It reminds me of the work done on hyperhistory.org, where timelines and interconnected data help visualize complex historical developments. Just like with dog breeds, understanding patterns over time leads to better decisions and deeper appreciation. Looking forward to seeing how the chart evolvesm, it could be a great resource for the community!" Questions to @ell&diesel 1. Are you satisfied with my replies to your first paragraph? 2. Can you define how merle is to absolutely be removed from my definition since it can be found online? Is it a genetic incongruity I committed by copying incorrect information? 3. Your reply seemed to be outlining that you'd be pretty close to the work Iris Hale has done with the ASTCD and heavy critiques about her counterproductivity. How, to you, did she manage to get the breed to go extinct like in the 1960s when information from reputable sources revealed that the stumpy tail had disappeared in the 40s? Mistakes? Deliberate? 4. What is your stance about what I'm bringing forward on the diagram, strictly according to ACD? Bagust vs Bentley? Anything from the book you advised to show that I'm mistaken? For your reference, have you read Australian Barkers and Biters by Kaleski? (I haven't yet but planning on it) I believe there to be information about what type of dog was used as a stem before they added Dalmatian and Kelpie or would there not be any? I believe there would. I invite you to take a look at that American forum, https://www.reddit.com/r/AustralianCattleDog/ browse through, and tell me if you still cannot see my point in differentiating ACD and CDoA or am I going bonkers? I mean all my mates agree with us, though logical reasoning, they aren't academics, they don't know anything about politics and don't compete with their hounds but those guys are the 99.9999999% readers on wikipedia and they want the information to be clarified according to this. Will update my chart shortly once I have verified the information you have provided and will post the revision here.

That poor man. What a horrendous death.

I saw a story about the ex wife claiming it was the husband's responsibility to restrain the dogs on the day but one of them also told the teenagers to do it. In this age of technology it is not good enough. They should be able to text an owner, have verification they are contained and after meter read is done another message can go to homeowner to say meter has been read. Or they have to get a smart metre. If people are unsure how safe their dogs will be they have to have a strategy or they get an estimate read. I wouldn't leave any of my dogs loose simply because not everyone likes dogs and you don't need them underfoot while trying to do your job quickly. So preventable.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-14/kane-minion-dog-attack-meter-reader-inquest/105889012

Sounds like the person had been involved in an attack before this episode and came prepared (although why you'd go to off leash after that is mystifying so I'm probably wrong). I have mostly small breeds, easily confused with prey. I just can't/don't/won't do off leash.

Sure thing, you can have some personal information. I'm curious to know your credit card number. We'll swap.

Ok so we already know this poster is random AF but can anyone who understands the internet tell me why I see this when I look at the poster's activity?

As we have recently learned "Things are seldom what they seem" from H.M.S. Pinafore Gilbert and Sullivan The weapon used was described as a multitool, like a Swiss Army knife, so the knife part may have been quite small, and legal to carry in WA. The owner may have had enough of dogs running up with the owner a long way behind yelling "He's friendly". But then, why go to an offleash area? Hopefully more will be revealed. I picked quiet times to go to a dog park, and after some encounters with supposedly friendly dogs, I carried a golf umbrella.

Without knowing all the circumstances I have to say I would defend my dogs with a knife if I had one. But no one should be put in that position.

This is why we all need effective recall if we are going to exercise our dogs in an off-leash area... reactivity from other dogs or people who don't want to be rushed at during their use of the area. I am in no way defending the use of a knife to resolve whatever issue actually occurred - if the other owner's dog suffered bite wounds, then there is definitely more to this story than we are getting - but the fact remains that the owner of the 2 dogs that were stabbed was not close enough to his own dogs to control them, and had poor recall when they chose to go "greet" the other dog. His dogs have paid the price of that lack of recall pure and simple. T.

These are great questions. Also does the breeder plan to start crate training the puppies before they go home, and have they ever ridden in a car before. tutuapp 9apps

Why don’t you adopt an old dog? snaptube vidmate

What a great cat I am glad his way of life is helping his 'Mum' with her mental health .

Oh Dear Seems like there was an altercation between the dogs , and he reacted with a knife That poor family .... Hope the other man's dog is ok ....

https://www.9news.com.au/national/perth-familys-heartbreak-after-dogs-stabbed-on-morning-walk/0c1d50ba-96c7-494c-87af-c3a3ed473dd1

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-12/mango-the-muster-cat-draws-attention-to-western-qld-recovery/105783150

Curious to find out how many dogs share your pet’s name, breed, or suburb?

what to do when two Staffy cross puppies that were stolen from a home in Calamvale were safely returned after a woman was charged with theft by police. Tutuapp 9Apps

What a ..........

Glad the truth has been found.

Poor little darling Those two should have received harsher sentencing .

Retired- home all day listening to a yapping chi .....guns everywhere - surprised it didn't happen earlier. Poor little dog

"If the desire to kill and the opportunity to kill came always together, who would escape hanging?” — Mark Twain Sad situation all around. Too many guns. Too weak a system for handling disputes between neighbors. Old geezer looses it.

Why have you split the ACD into "Cattle Dog of Australia" (current type today) and "Australian Cattle Dog"? They are one and the same. There is only one ACD breed, it is the ANKC recognised breed and it looks like the photo you're using for "Cattle Dog of Australia." The dog you are using for "Australian Cattle Dog" is a poor specimen and certainly should not be getting used in an infographic about the ACD. Further to this, the ACD DOES NOT have "thin bone" or a "slimmer skull" by absolutely any stretch of the imagination. They are a broad-skulled breed, and the heaviest boned of all the Australian working dog breeds: the ACD has the heaviest bone, followed by the ASTCD, and finally the Australian Kelpie is the lightest-boned of the three. The ASTCD whose photo you're using is also not an ideal specimen to use as that dog is too fine. The person who produced that dog produced a dog called Ambajaye Tail Not Included, who is a far better representation of the breed. Neither the ACD nor the ASTCD are merle, ever. Merle DOES NOT exist in these breeds. The ASTCD was not ANKC recognised as the "A"STCD initially. It was the STCD until 2001, when it became the ASTCD. The ASTCD did not "disappear" in the 1940s, Iris Heale certainly did not "reintroduce" them (quite the opposite, she almost sent the breed extinct), and the "new" breed wasn't "created" from standard cattle dogs (the breed never died out). I'm also unsure what "recessive gene" you're referring to - the NBT gene is a DOMINANT gene, not a recessive one, and that's why ACDs don't have stumpy tails. It's not a gene that can hide through generations, in order to produce stumpy tailed dogs you have to have at least one parent who HAS a stumpy tail. The gene is heterozygous lethal, however, which is why 2/3s of the ASTCD population will be born with a full tail. The first records in Australia of cattle dogs being exhibited was in 1889 in Victoria. They were short-tailed dogs (ie stumpies), shown under the breed name "Blue Heelers." Fast forward a bit after Kaleski did his thing and made the first Cattle Dog breed standard. The Kennel Association of Queensland started differentiating between "Cattle Dogs (long-tailed)" and "Cattle Dogs (stumpy tailed)" in the 1920s, however they were still considered two variations of the same breed, both judged against the same Cattle Dog standard, and were freely interbred with progeny being registered and exhibited based on phenotype. It wasn't until 1934 that the "Cattle dog (stumpy tailed)" got its own breed standard, however the two breeds continued to be interbred. In 1948, the Kennel Association of QLD became the CCCQ, and they then fell under the ANKC when it was formed in 1953. At this time, the CCCQ decided that they were most displeased with this history of (and ongoing) interbreeding of the two types, and thus they sought to deregister the Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog as a breed, along with all the breeders of the breed. Why they only chose to take this action against the STCD and not the ACD is one of life's great mysteries. Iris Heale fought them on this, and won - and on the 17th of October, 1957, the CCCQ rescinded its decision to de-register the STCD as a breed, and reinstated ONLY Glen Iris as a registered breeding kennel. This had the unfortunate effect of making Iris the only recognised breeder of the STCD in the world; and as she would not sell dogs for breeding to anybody, she damn well nearly sent the registered, pedigree version of the breed extinct. Working STCD have always been plentiful, however, and that's why the DR was able to succeed (see below). The 1934 breed standard continued to be used until the breed was formally recognised nationally by the ANKC in 1963; at this time, the standard was revised to permit tan points on blue dogs. In 1988, the ANKC realised that the STCD would go extinct as a result of Glen Iris' absolute control over the breed and her refusal to allow anybody else to purchase breeding specimens. The ANKC then revised the breed standard (removing tan points, bringing it back in line with the original 1934 standard), and created the Development Register to ensure the continued survival of the breed. The DR allowed people to bring their unregistered, farm-bred working stumpy tailed cattle dogs to grading days, and have them graded and then if they were sufficient, permitted into the breeding population. The DR closed in 2006. I recommend you refer to the 2022 book "A Dog For The Job" by Noreen Clark. It is the most comprehensive and well-researched history of the two Cattle Dog breeds to date. Noreen also actively posts a lot about the breeds' histories on her Facebook page, and would likely have a wealth of useful information and feedback on your infographic.